Multithreaded Income Podcast

It's time for the multi
threaded income podcast.

We're like insurance for a
turbulent tech landscape.

I'm your host, Kevin Griffin.

Join me as I chat with people all around
the industry who are using their skills

to build multiple threads of income.

Let us support you in your career
by joining our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

Now let's get started.

Kevin Griffin: Welcome
back to the show everyone.

We are live ish from CodeMash
conference in Sandusky, Ohio.

And I'm here for a couple days.

And I'm going to pull a couple
different folks in here to have a

conversation about multi threaded income.

Um, and today I am joined
by Killian Valkholf.

Valkholf.

Yes.

Very good.

Sorry.

Sorry.

I am awful with names.

Anyone who's listened to the
podcast knows I am awful with names.

I do my best.

Um, but Killian, it is very
good to have you on the podcast.

This is your first CodeMash.

It is.

Yes.

Excellent.

Uh, what are you going to be speaking on?

Kilian Valkhof: Uh, I'm going to do two
talks, one on Thursday and one on Friday.

Uh, the one on Thursday is called
Stop using JavaScript for that.

Okay.

And it's all about things you can
nowadays do in CSS and HTML that a few

years ago you needed JavaScript for.

Yeah.

But because the web is the web, all that
JavaScript stuff still works and you

might not realize there's a better way.

So it's just, you know, me telling you
all the better ways that you can write

the same stuff in a much easier way.

Absolutely.

And then the second one is
called Understanding CSS Layout.

And it's all about Um, learning
and understanding like the

fundamentals and, uh, the basic
concepts behind CSS as it is.

Yeah.

Because if you understand those,
suddenly all the weird stuff in

CSS suddenly starts to make sense.

Mm hmm.

Uh, that's the first, it's the first time
I'm giving that talk, so it's going to

be very interesting to see how it goes.

Yeah.

But I'm, I'm very excited for

Kevin Griffin: both.

Good luck, uh, and as a longtime CodeMash
speaker, you're going to do great.

You're going to have a packed house.

So everyone's.

Here for you to win.

So you're, you're going to do a great
job, but that's not why we want to

talk like we want to talk about code
mash all day, but you have an app

that you, um, an app or product that
you deploy that you, that's right.

You publish, um, called polypane.

Yeah.

So why don't you tell us a
little bit about what polypane

is and the problem it's

Kilian Valkhof: solving.

So polypane is a web browser, just
like Google chrome, just like Firefox.

Except that it's a web browser
specifically developed for

people building websites.

So it's a web browser for web developers.

Uh, and what that means is that it's,
it's essentially like someone, uh, a

few months back called it, it's like
DevTools with cheat codes enabled.

So that's my tagline now.

Um, it's essentially this idea of what if
your entire browser was a DevTool that's

completely designed to help you build.

Websites faster, better, catch errors
before your users do, make sure that

it works on all devices, make sure
that it's accessible, and that it's

easy for you to, to do all those
things rather than having it feel like

an additional thing you have to do.

Gotcha.

Kevin Griffin: What was your
reason for building app?

Was there something you were doing your
job previously that you thought, Oh,

this be a really good product to have?

Um, what was your lead up to eventually
starting down the path of polypane?

Kilian Valkhof: Yeah.

So before this, I ran an internet
agency, so I just sold websites

and apps to everyone that wants it.

Um, and around 2014, 2015, 15.

I had switched over the design team from
Photoshop, which we were using to sketch.

And one thing I really enjoyed
working with sketch was that it

had this concept of art boards.

Like nowadays that's not special.

Like everyone has art boards,
but back then like sketch really

introduced the concept of you have
a large canvas and then you have

different art boards on that canvas.

Whereas Photoshop, it was just like one.

Design is one file.

Yeah.

Uh, and what that enabled me to
do in Sketch was to have all the

responsive variants of a website.

So the mobile design and the tablet
design and the desktop design

side by side in one overview.

And that really sped up my design time.

Because I could very quickly like compare,
contrast, change across all the sizes.

And visually see.

That I did it correctly, that it,
that will work that I didn't miss

anything that, you know, what, what
tended to happen in that time during

that time was designers would like
design the desktop view and then the

mobile view, and then they needed to
update the desktop view for something.

And then an entire section
would just be missing on mobile.

Yeah.

Um, and that really slowed down.

The process and suddenly with sketch,
you had this right in your face.

Like if there was a content block
missing, you would instantly see it.

So that was a really great way of working.

Uh, but then when it came to
implementing those designs, I went

back to the browser and suddenly I
was back in like the Photoshop world.

Like I could only see one
page in a single size at.

At once.

Yeah.

And I had to switch back
and forth all the time.

And, uh, I had always been building
like tools to make my own life

better as a, as a web developer.

Uh, so I came up with like, essentially
like a, a, a dinky electron app that

showed a webpage at three different sizes.

Mm-Hmm.

, uh, and like a, an unsal input
bar at the top where I could put

in the, the internet address and.

And I started using that to build my
websites because it would show me like

mobile tablets and desktops side by side.

Yeah So I used that and it was nice, but
I didn't really think much of it like it

was just like a throwaway tool until I
started comparing my hours and When using

that tool I was 60 percent faster Uh,
compared to not using that tool, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Uh, so, and that's when I realized like,
you know, maybe this is a product, maybe

this isn't just a dinky tool for me.

Maybe this is a product.

So I started developing it more and
more and more and shared a beta out.

And then in 2019, I, uh, quit
my agency or I sold my shares in

the agency and went full time on.

What was then known as polypane.

Gotcha.

Kevin Griffin: So, uh, you
had existing cuffs customers

before you quit your agency.

Yeah.

All right.

So I'm always interested in the ramp up.

So you're working on polypane and
eventually you hit a point where you just

felt like polypane was the way to go.

You didn't need to do all this other work.

I know we, we don't like talking
about numbers sometimes, but So

you are from the Netherlands.

Yes, and so a lot of listeners are U.

S.

based.

I'm always kind of interested
in just, uh, income, lifestyle,

cost of living fluctuations.

Um, would you be comfortable kind of
talking about the, the number where income

wise, where it felt comfortable quitting
your, your, your comfortable agency

Kilian Valkhof: and going full time.

Yeah.

So it, it, it wasn't really a, uh, a
number thing because at that point I

had been giving poly pain away for free.

Yeah.

Like, as a, as a beta.

Uh, but I have been running
that agency for 14 years.

Uh, I started very early.

Yeah.

Uh, and I was just, I was also
kind of done with the agency game.

Uh, you don't have to get into that,
but I think like, I understand Yeah.

A agencies as a concept are,
like the middle is falling out.

Yeah.

Like you, you either are a very
large agency servicing very large

customers or you sell very cheaply
to very small customers and the

middle just doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah.

And I, I saw that writing on the wall.

So I, I, I wanted to get out.

I also, I had always wanted
to do a product company and

we could never get it to work.

Uh, so I figured, you know.

Now's the time to just go for it.

So this is probably very poor financial
advice, but I, like I sold my shares.

So I had, uh, I money in the bank
and I gave myself a year to just

develop polypane, see where, where,
where I could bring it, where

I could take it in that year.

And then after a year, I.

I was going to decide, like, am I going
to continue doing this or am I just

going to go back to like advising,
freelancing, all the stuff that I also

have been doing, uh, during that time.

Oh, you,

Kevin Griffin: uh, essentially self
funded your, your own developments.

Yeah.

You had enough in the bank.

Um, I've seen a lot of people do that.

They're just successful doing something
and they're putting together their.

Uh, we call it the nest egg.

You just have exactly
money off to the side.

And if you're going to invest in
something, always invest in yourself.

I think that's fascinating.

Yeah.

And

Kilian Valkhof: it's, so it's, it was
a calculated risk and it could not have

worked out, but luckily it did work out.

And after a year, uh, I was
confident enough in the cashflow,

in the trajectory of the company
that I decided to just keep going.

Kevin Griffin: Let's talk about
some of the details of just

running a product company.

So you took what was a free product, you
rebuilt it, turned it into a pay product.

Well,

Kilian Valkhof: so during the beta,
it was free as in, you know, it's in

beta and you can use it, but with the
full intention of at some points, this

is going to become a paid product.

So, uh, like I, I quit on.

December, uh, 31st, 2018.

And then I gave myself a month
off and I didn't make it.

So after two weeks, uh, I was, you
know, figuring out what are all

this things I need to do to make
this, uh, a product I can sell.

Um, and that, of course, you know,
there's part of the product itself

that That I felt needed more, or it
needed to be better, or it needed to be

streamlined in, in, in different ways.

So I had some product work to do.

Uh, once you start selling licenses
or subscriptions, you're going to

need something to manage that stuff.

Uh, so I, I wrote my own like license
checking surfer and subscription

management dashboards for that.

Um, hooking up like payment
processors and databases and, you

know, making sure all of that works.

And then coming up with the marketing plan
and like, how am I going to announce this

to the world to make sure that people can
try it and how am I going to run trials?

Because you know, I want people to
try it before they have to commit,

uh, so I had to set that up.

Uh, and then.

Um, I ended up launching in May, the 14th
of May, 2019, um, with a bit of a run up.

So I had about 3000
people on the beta list.

Um, so in the days before launching,
I emailed them like, you know, I'm

going to launch this in this date,
there's going to be a product hunts page

because that, that was the thing to do.

That was the thing you do.

Like, please vote for me, but then,
you know, you can't say please vote

for me, but you have to be like,
you know, if you enjoy polypane,

then please consider, et cetera.

Um, and then, you know, figuring out
what are all the other places I can, I

can, you know, share the news with, uh, I
made some way over the top press release,

like Dutch companies taking on Google
and it got picked up by like a few Dutch.

Dutch websites.

So that that was fun.

Um, and then also what I did, um,
Um, I'm using paddle as a payment

processor, uh, because there are a
merchant of records and that means

they handle all the tech stuff.

So then I don't have to calculate
VAT for all the companies

in the world and remit that.

Do a VAT most like every quarter and
fill in numbers for each European.

That's not what I want to
be doing in my company.

So I just, you know, let
someone else deal with that.

Uh,

Kevin Griffin: let's stop on that.

Just for folks who listening it
as small businesses, when you're

selling, whether it's subscription
products or you're selling, um.

You're selling licenses of any
kind, especially over in Europe.

You have to basically pay taxes
in all the places that your

customers are buying from.

Yes.

And a little bit of that is leaking over
into the United States now where now

companies who are selling products have
to pay, uh, taxes in individual states.

And I'm sure there's even a complexity
where if you want to be a large legitimate

company in, In Europe, you have to pay,
uh, taxes in the United States and the,

the fundamental problem in the United
States is they kind of pass the laws

like, Oh, you have to pay the state
tax and the locality tax, like in the

cities that you're in, but none of the
infrastructures are set up for that.

Um, there are some cases, and I
have a really good friend who lives

in, um, Denmark who's She's a U.

S.

citizen who lives in Denmark now.

And she went very deep into there's
counties where you can't pay your

taxes unless you're in person.

Like there's no online method to do it.

And it's just so hard to be,
be correct to be up to date.

If you want to be a good.

Taxpaying citizen.

It's just very difficult to do that.

Uh, but the, the merchant record,
it's like going through paddle.

You don't have to worry
about any of that, which

Kilian Valkhof: it makes
my life much easier.

Uh, and I mean, like they do charge a
fee for that, but the, like the, the

amount of comfort it gives me that
I, I don't have to be responsible

for typing in the right number.

50 times each month because I know I am
not the type of person that can type in

a number 50 times correctly each month.

That's just not going to happen.

I'm going to get distracted like at the
10th digit I have to fill in and it's

then my accountant is going to be mad
at me and the IRS is going to be mad

at me and I just don't want a deal.

Kevin Griffin: The less
we have to do the better.

Let someone else worry about it.

Uh, all right.

I think that's fascinating.

So how was that initial ramp?

You did the launch, you did a product.

Yeah.

Kilian Valkhof: So what I actually
did was, uh, like 10 days or so before

launching, I sent out an email, uh,
to, to all the beta subscribers.

Like I want to test my checkout flow and
like, I've done it, but it works for me.

That doesn't really mean anything.

Yeah.

Like I know which button to push.

To do the right thing, like
who wants to buy PolyPay now,

uh, for a discount, of course.

So I actually, I got my first customers
before launching, uh, which was like, like

a great, like pre validation as it were.

Uh, but that also proved like, okay,
all the, everything works correctly.

So I can, I can launch there's,
there's no scary parts.

There, like there's no systems
that are going to blow up.

There's no like emails that
are not going to get sent.

Like everything works and I
can just, you know, put the

website online and, and hope.

Um, so that was really nice.

I'm very happy that I did it that way.

Um, and then I launched and, you know,
all my friends voted, voted for it.

I don't think it ended
up at number one, uh,

Kevin Griffin: but it's
hard to get the number one,

Kilian Valkhof: even back then,
like there was a fair amount of like

buying votes going on even more.

So now, um, but that doesn't matter.

Like it's, that's just a moment.

And from there you, you continue building.

Um, and so that, that's what I still
try to do where I'm like, 50 percent

products and then 50 percent all the rest.

Yeah.

Um, and all the rest being a majority
marketing, but then also like

sports, accounting, administrative,
administrative tasks, et cetera.

Um, it doesn't always work because,
you know, I am a developer, so

if I can work on the product, I'm
going to always prefer doing that.

Uh, which is, it is a trap.

Um, I've seen other people.

Um, deal with that by having like
very strict, like this is product

week where this is marketing week.

Yep.

That doesn't work for me.

Uh, because you know, if, if
there's a product thing that, you

know, that is, that is running as
like a background task in my head.

So if that has to run as a
background task for entire week,

that's going to be an issue.

Yeah.

So I, I usually do.

I switch it up like
halfway through the day.

Kevin Griffin: Is it just you
still on the, doing everything?

Yeah.

Have you any ambition to bring on

Kilian Valkhof: any team members?

Well, so the agency had 14 people.

So I was quite happy
not to have employees.

Yeah.

For a bit, and I still am.

Because like, working
with people is great.

But being responsible for the livelihoods.

Yeah.

Other people's families is not so great.

Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm going to
stretch it out for as long as I can.

I do work with freelancers every now
and then for tasks that I don't enjoy.

So I had a freelancer migrate
my database at some point.

I had a freelancer do
some like SEO research.

Um,

Kevin Griffin: what do you think the
first position you would hire would

be if, if you went in that direction?

Uh,

Kilian Valkhof: that's tough because
like product makes the most sense,

but it's also the thing that I
get the most enjoyment out of.

So essentially every, every hire you
make is more like every hire you make

as a one person company is going to
be for something that has the most

impact in a one person company.

You have the most impact.

Yeah.

Um, Um, like other things I could
hire people for are like all the admin

work, but like in my system, I do that
Monday morning and it takes me an hour.

I do it every week and
very diligent about that.

And then it's just always up to
date and it's no work at all.

And you don't have to stress at like 11 PM
on tax day, like getting all the receipts.

Yeah.

In order to make sure that you
can submit your stuff to the IRS.

Like that never happens, happens for me.

If I have to pay VAT, it's
like, Oh, it's, it's a VAT mom.

Yeah.

Click, click, send and it's done.

So, so that's also not something
I need to hire someone for, uh,

because, you know, because of systems.

Kevin Griffin: Always find a lot
of developer centric products.

Always tend to hire out the marketing
or the support aspects of it first,

because like, I don't know how, how much
support do you have to do on Polyban?

Are you getting a good
number of support requests?

Kilian Valkhof: Uh, so I, I, I
invest a lot in the documentation.

Good plan.

Yeah.

Um, and that really helps.

I get like maybe.

A dozen or so inquiries a day.

Okay.

So that's, you know, that's,
that's perfectly manageable.

Kevin Griffin: Not enough where
you're stressing out about

taking care of the customers.

No,

Kilian Valkhof: no.

So I, you know, I, I, I have live chats
everywhere, like on the site, in the app,

et cetera, and people are always very
surprised when I respond like within.

Um, and I can reply to it in two
minutes, but you know, that, that

live chat, it just lands on my phone.

So almost regardless of what
I'm doing, I can reply and, and

because I built the entire product,
I always have the answer ready.

Um,

Kevin Griffin: Absolutely.

That's a difficult thing to train.

So, all right, here's how this,
yeah, this product that has lived

in my head for years and years.

Exactly.

Here's everything you
need to know about it.

Um, I can understand that.

Yeah.

Kilian Valkhof: And then, and then
for marketing, what I've did, like the

interesting thing with marketing is
that I do talk to marketing people a

lot, uh, and, uh, I, I enjoy challenging
them because marketing for developers

is so very different from, from like
the marketing playbook, but what's

interesting, because I, I, I've been
saying that for, for four years, because.

Like in that first year, I tried
essentially everything you can try in

terms of marketing, like calls outreach,
um, email campaigns, uh, ads, um, you

know, almost everything you can imagine.

So, and, and, and I kept notes on that.

So I knew what worked, what didn't work.

If I could figure out why it didn't work.

Uh, so whenever I would talk to like
a marketing expert and we're like,

have you considered doing blah?

And we're like, yep, that doesn't work
for this and this and this reason.

Uh, and you know, almost always I'd
end up exhausting their suggestions.

Um, so yeah.

And, and then what, like the
only thing that really works

for developers is word of mouth.

Yeah.

And that's not really something you can.

Um, like guides, you can only stimulate
it and you can only stimulate it by

having a good products and by making it
easy for people to try it out and making

it easy for people to, to share that.

Um, and coincidentally, that's
also the work you need to do

to make the product goods.

Yeah.

So that overlaps really well.

Uh, but that also means
that, you know, where other.

companies might be like, yeah, we're just
gonna do a marketing or an email campaign

to 20,000 companies in the next month,
and that's gonna give us, uh, 10% return.

Yep.

Like, yeah, that, that's just
not going to happen for me.

It's going to be much slower.

And, and that's okay.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

I, I definitely feel with trying
to market to developers, uh, so

much of developer products is
right place, right time, so just.

Constantly, consistently putting your
message out there, your product out

there in the hope that the developer
who you're trying to attract is

looking at it at the right time.

And like speaking at conferences
is probably a good marketing

device for you because you'll
hopefully you show your product

and someone goes, Ooh, what's that?

Follow us, follow us up, maybe eventually
ends up a sale and a customer for life.

Kilian Valkhof: Yeah.

Yeah.

So that, that is part of why
I do conference speaking.

It's also because I enjoy it a lot.

So that helps.

Uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's
definitely like a good way to share

your, uh, your products like with
people like plainly speaking with

people that aren't on Twitter.

Which are way more people than you think.

Like it's very easy to get myopic about it
when you're, you know, you're, you're on

Twitter, you're in those deaf communities.

Yeah.

And it's very easy to think
like, yeah, this is it.

Obviously everyone's here.

Yeah.

But obviously that's not the case.

And it's, it's at conferences
like this where you meet so

much more diverse people.

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

So kind of moving on.

I know you have a family.

Yeah.

How have you felt?

Your life work balance has gotten
better going all in on the product

versus when you were with the agency.

Um,

Kilian Valkhof: that it
hasn't really changed.

Okay.

Um So I, I, I, for myself, I
had always been very strict,

like I work 40 hours a week.

Uh, I can work a little more if needed,
but that's not going to be quality hours.

That's just going to be grind.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's better if I don't.

Uh, and that's true for,
for polypane as well.

So if I worked for eight
hours a day, I'm done.

Like every hour I work in the evening.

I have to work two hours
to make up the next day.

So it's better if I, if I don't, uh,
and, um, you know, I work from home.

I have two young children.

Uh, if anything, I work less now
because, you know, I, I don't have

to be in office managing people.

Uh, if one of my kids is, is ill, then,
you know, then I don't work that day.

Yeah.

Um.

Um, and that's, that's
a really easy decision.

Uh, it's not always something I, I
enjoy, uh, because, you know, it is

still lost time that I could have,
you know, develop things faster.

Uh, but you know, family comes first,
that's, that's a very easy choice to make.

Uh, so yeah, so I, it.

It, I, I get that it really depends
on your personality, like I'm there,

there are many people that enjoy
very much to work until very late and

they get a lot of energy from that.

I don't.

But yeah, but I'm, I'm not that person.

Um, so it's, it's better if I don't for,
for me, for the products, uh, for the

speed with which I can release stuff.

So I don't.

Kevin Griffin: What's uh, what's next?

Is PolyPane just going to be your life
for the next several years or do you have

anything else that you're starting to work

Kilian Valkhof: on?

Uh, so PolyPane is definitely going to
be my life for the next couple of years.

Um, when I launched, I had a roadmap
of five years worth of features.

Now we're five years later and I have a
roadmap of five years worth of features.

There you go.

So, uh, it's, it's a never ending story.

Uh, but I've also been working on a
second product called PolyPaint Cloud.

So one of the things PolyPaint does is
it makes it really easy to figure out,

like, what are the accessibility issues of
the particular page that I'm looking at.

And More importantly, how do I fix them?

How do I improve it?

Um, because like there's a lot of
tools that will tell you everything

you did wrong with your website.

But if you're a developer, and I
know this from agency experience, if

you're a developer and you encounter,
like, a tool telling you you did it

wrong, then you have a choice to make.

And the choice is, am I going to figure
out what the right thing, right way is,

and figure out which of the five Uh,
like different answers I can find is the

actual correct one or am I going to move
this ticket to done and make my PM happy?

And then the, that second choice
is always going to be the choice

they make because you know,
websites get built by the deadline.

Um, and making that deadline is
always going to be more important.

So one thing that I, I feel very
strongly about in polypane is that

I want that choice to not exist.

I want the developer to be working on
a website and polypane saying, Hey, you

know, this is wrong, do this instead.

And because they're then working
on it, it's, it takes no effort.

It takes no additional efforts to
fix the thing and, and carry on

with your task rather than, you
know, having go to go out of that

development flow and into research mode.

Um, but polypane is a browser and one
characteristic of a browser is that

it shows a web page and not a website.

So a lot of people have been asking
me for the past few years, like, you

know, all this tooling is great, but
I just want to scan my entire website

and have you tell me what I should fix.

So that's what I've been
building, like essentially all the

tooling that I have in polypane.

Uh, that's all, it's
all JavaScript polypane.

So, uh, all the tests and
checks, et cetera, that I have,

they're all little scripts.

Um, I've been building this website
scanner that, you know, goes through

your websites, opens every webpage, uh,
does all the checks that I already have.

Um, and then creates a report for
that, uh, based on an accessibility

standard so that it's interoperable and
you can like generate an HTML reports

and a PDF reports like in one go.

Um, so that's what I've been working on.

And I, uh, I also work with
a freelancer for that because

backend development isn't my thing.

Yeah.

Um, like I can do it,
but I don't enjoy it.

Uh, and I know other people.

Do enjoy it.

And they do a much better
job than me because of that.

Uh, so I've been working with a
freelancer where, you know, they do all

the stuff I find boring and then I come
in and, and do the UI stuff and the

logic, uh, or the, like the business
logic, the, the interaction, et cetera.

Uh, and that's been going really well.

Uh, that's in beta now.

Few companies using it.

I'm just iterating, iterating on that.

And it's a, it's a very nice product to
sit alongside polypane because you know,

it, it shares a lot of like those checks.

Uh, it takes me half an hour to move a
check from polypane to polypane cloud.

Okay.

Uh, and that includes like
a database migration and a

visualization because There's a
bunch of stuff shared between them.

So I can, it's essentially just copy
and pasting and then making sure that I

store the right thing in the right place.

Uh, so that's been, I I've very happy
with the technology choices that I

made there that have enabled that.

Um, but hopefully that also means
that I can iterate really fast.

Uh, and I, you know, I hope
to be able to sell that to.

Larger companies and larger, uh,
accessibility testing agencies.

Uh, whereas polypane is much more
on an individual product, like

a single developer buys it or a
single team buys it for their team.

And polypane cloud is more something
that the entire company can use.

So I hope that that
makes it easier to grow.

Kevin Griffin: That's awesome.

Uh, so kind of wrapping up, any
advice for anyone who's out there

who says, I have a product idea,
I want to start working on it.

Um, what advice would
you give to that person?

Kilian Valkhof: Um, I mean, so
if, if you look at what I did,

that's probably not advisable.

Like quit everything and,
and work on it for a year.

You don't have to do that.

But what I did there was I had
a lot of validation beforehand.

Like when I quit my job, I
already had 3000 people that were

interested in what I was building.

Um, try to, you know, build stuff
that you need because that is going to

make sure that you have the internal
motivation to keep working on it forever.

Um, and then, you know, validate that
other people also have a similar needs

and you can do that very simply by.

You know, what I did with PolyPay
initially was, you know, everyone

can get the beta, but they have
to give me their email address.

Yeah.

Uh, and that's, it's low effort,
but it also gives you the ability to

send them updates because, you know,
I, I didn't have an auto updating

mechanism for the beta, uh, because
that's a pain to set up as well.

Um.

And, you know, you, you can learn
so much from that process and by

just being like very candid with the
people that are trying your tools.

Um, so yeah, that's, that's to me
the way to get started and that's

how I would do it again as well.

Like get, get people in and then work
with them on like, what do you need?

Does this work for you?

And that can be very low efforts.

Um, like an, an email doesn't take
a lot of time now, uh, reading their

reply also doesn't take a lot of time.

Um, and, and yeah, go, go from there.

Like at some points for me, at
least I could feel like, okay,

this is now viable in some way.

Like I can see this going somewhere.

Like.

What I have now definitely isn't
good yet, but it has potential.

Um, and there, there's that moment
where like probably when people start to

proactively tell you stuff like where,
where it's no longer pool, like you're

not pulling for, for replies, you're not.

Like, please give me feedback,
but they're, they're sending you

feedback, whether you want to or not.

Yeah.

Like, I think that's the point where
like people are motivated enough that

they see this tool and they, they
want to use it and they want it to be

better because they want to use it.

Yeah.

And then that's the point where you
can be like, okay, now I'm going to

spend more time on that and, you know,
be, be more structured about that.

Kevin Griffin: That's great advice.

I think so too.

Well, Kelly, I'm not going to
take up any more of your time.

Thank you so much for hanging out with me.

Yeah.

Thank you as well.

Thank you for being on the
podcast and everyone out there.

Thank you for watching.

Uh, we're going to put links to
all your stuff, um, and polypane.

So if you're out there and you're
like, that's exactly what I need.

Check the links in the show notes and
we'll get you a couple more customers.

We'll do our best.

So, all right, everyone,
we'll see you next week on the

multi threaded income podcast.

Take care.

You've been listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

I really hope that this podcast
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And don't forget the
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Join us on our discord at mti.

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I've been your host Kevin Griffin
and we'll see you next week.

Cha ching!