Multithreaded Income Podcast

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
Welcome back to the show, everyone.

I am joined today by my very
good friend, David Neal.

How are you today,

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333:
Hey, Kevin, I am doing great.

Thank you for having me on your show.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
Absolutely.

I know I had wanted to
get you on the show.

I think we were chatting randomly a couple
of weeks ago, and I wasn't telling anyone

that we were starting this podcast and.

I was talking to you about some of the
drawing work you had done and realized,

all right, David, David's a perfect
person to come talk about, multi threaded

income because you're, you're doing
it in a, I would say less conventional

way than a lot of technologists think
about multiple threads of income.

Um, so let's start with
the very beginning.

David, tell us a little bit about
yourself, your origin story.

How'd you get to where you are today?

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333:
Well, let's see.

I was born, I don't know.

Maybe we don't need to
go back that far, but

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
was a warm summer

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333:
yes, um, when I was young, I had

the most amazing, um, thing happen.

Um, I didn't grow up in a, you know.

A well off family or anything like that.

We, we lived in an area where there
were a lot of dirt, dirt roads

still, you know, unpaved roads.

Um, but every year we would go around
Thanksgiving and spend Thanksgiving

day with some family close to Atlanta.

And it was my aunt and uncle's
house and one Thanksgiving, uh,

Many moons ago, I think it was 1982.

Uh, cause I've, I've talked
about this story and some of

the talks that I've given.

Um, I had this fateful
experience of, of playing with.

a TRS 80 color computer
that was my cousin's.

And, um, I don't know that I spent, how
much time I spent at the computer, but I

know it made an impression on my uncle.

And then sometime later, we get
a phone call and we got in the

car and we drove to my aunt and
uncle's house a couple hours away.

And they had a cardboard box for me that
had the TRS 80, a cassette drive, a floppy

drive, And a dot matrix printer and,
you know, some software and, and a book.

On, uh, color basic and, you know, I
was a young kid at the time I'd, I was

just interested in the games and stuff
you could do on it, but that, that

really was looking back the catalyst
that got me interested in computers.

And I went from that to a Commodore 64,
which I use through school and college.

And, um, when I got to college, I.

I wanted to be a musician.

I, I wasn't, I wasn't, you
know, really thinking about

tech or anything for my career.

Um, so I was just taking some
classes to, to try to, um, you

know, work toward a degree.

Uh, I started in drafting, uh, you
know, I thought, well, that, that

might, that sounds like it might be fun.

And then I switched to business
administration because I didn't

know what I was going to do.

And I took a class, um, an
accounting class and In this

accounting class, they were teaching.

The teacher was using Lotus one,
two, three, and you know, this was

before windows and all that stuff.

So no one knew how to use computers.

No one knew how to use Lotus one, two,
three, that the teacher was fairly young

and she didn't know how to use it either.

Uh, it was just part of this
curriculum that they were

starting to use at the college.

And I ended up helping everyone with.

The, the assignments.

I was teaching other people how to use
this, this software because it was like,

well, this is, this is a no brainer.

I, you know, work on my
computer all the time.

This is easy.

And, um.

It was that moment that I kind of
realized, well, every time I have

touched a computer, whether it be in
my drafting class, there were some

CAD stuff, or there was a, um, a lab,
a computer lab at the school that,

you know, really piqued my interest.

Like, man, every time I touch
a computer, I have a good time.

Maybe I should, maybe I should try a
computer class and see what that's like.

So, I took, um, BASIC and it was
TurboBASIC I believe, and, um, I knew

right away this is what I wanted to do.

Um, I took some Pascal and C and some
other things and I, I ended up with an

associate's degree in computer science.

I changed my major.

Um, but.

It, it was quite a while before I could
actually use my programming or, you know,

have opportunities to do any programming.

So I, my origin story, uh, to make
a, a long story longer, uh, is I

went to work in, in customer support.

I, I went to work for a, for
a temp agency that was like.

Manning telephones, uh, to talk, talk
to, you know, people about, um, you know,

the software that they were running.

I, and I ended up, um, taking a full
time job at a software company in,

uh, as a, uh, tech support supervisor
and, um, Is in, in that they were

using Pascal and, uh, they later, uh,
migrated to Delphi, but I used, I was

able to use my programming skills to
automate some things in tech support.

I was able to create some programs
that utilities, and I knew that's

what I wanted to do long term.

I just was looking for
the right opportunity.

All along the way, I was still
very interested in music.

Um, I ended up taking a job in the
Nashville area and moving to Nashville.

I ended up living in
Nashville for 20 years.

Uh, but, um, eventually a break came when
I was, I was able to move from kind of

like IT stuff into full time programming.

And the web was born and I started doing
web applications in the, in the 90s.

And, um, yeah, the rest
is kind of history.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334: Yeah.

I always love talking to folks who
did computing back in the eighties

because it brings back so many members
for me now, when you were playing with

your TRS 80 in 82, I wasn't even born
yet, it's amazing because I had very

similar experiences much later in the
eighties when I was, uh, a younger

boy and getting my first computer.

I remember Lotus one, two, three,
uh, actually, cause I never

used it in pre windows days.

I used the version that was in windows,
but I remember that was, that was

all you had for what spreadsheets
and all the, all that good stuff.

Um, that is quite the flashback.

For where you are now.

So probably the big reason that we
bring folks like you on the podcast

is that you're using your talents
in a variety of different way.

You currently have a full
time job that you're doing.

but then you have other work you do on
the side and maybe for everyone listening,

who doesn't go deep into your personal
life, what other side projects do you have

going on except, uh, What are the side
projects you have besides your main job?

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333:
well, today, the, the most of my work

outside of my primary job is, uh,
um, I do, um, avatars for folks for,

for like profiles and social media.

I do design work for, uh, for anything
and everything between, from, uh, book

covers and illustrations that go into
books and, uh, articles and content to,

uh, designing stickers and t shirts.

Uh, I work with events and.

Um, I do, you know, just about
most types of illustration

and graphic art design work.

Um, and that's, uh, that's
something that's only, uh, been

going on now for about five years.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
Well, let's back up a little then.

And so that's, that's a
really creative skill to have.

And you hadn't really talked about
that during your origin story.

You talked about doing computers.

You talked about music.

How do you find yourself
with the talent of.

Being able to draw.

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Yeah,
well, a little bit more origin story.

So when I was a kid, I
would, I doodled a lot.

I doodled on, um, my, my spelling
tests or different things in school.

I know I got in trouble for some of that.

Uh, I had one teacher who was really
awesome and she encouraged it.

And I had another teacher who, you know,
got upset whenever I'd, you know, I

doodled in class or doodled on e papers.

Um, so it was, you know, it was some
conflict there, but, but once I got to

high school, I was more interested in
music and I was playing guitar and I was

in, I was in marching band and school and
play trumpet and all that kind of stuff.

Um, so I, I stopped drawing
and I, and I didn't draw.

Uh, at all for over 20, 30 years,
um, the only drawing I ever did

was maybe a smiley face or a silly
looking cartoon face on my kid's

birthday cards or something like that.

I'm in tech.

I'm, I'm a software developer.

I'm doing web applications, work for
a bunch of different startup companies

and companies around the Nashville area.

I start doing, uh, I started working
from home, uh, gosh, 20 years ago.

Um, Either part time or
full time, depending on, uh,

the projects I was doing.

And I, I went to work for a
startup company that was based in

Dallas that, uh, did, um, So I was
working from home full time long

before, you know, most people did.

And I was getting kind of burned
out on the work from home stuff.

I didn't mind being at home.

It was just, I was so disconnected
and not, um, you know, just

not really connected with the
people that I worked with.

I was just doing work and, you know,
still, still having challenges.

But, um, I heard folks talking about
a Conference, uh, that was local.

And I had previously gone to some events
like tech ed and, uh, the Microsoft PDC.

I was at the Microsoft PDC in
Orlando in 2000, where they

announced dot net and ASP.

net and C sharp, uh, they
gave everybody at that.

conference, a, a little book
called presenting C sharp

and being the nerd that I am.

I took that back to the hotel with
me and I read it cover to cover.

It wasn't very big, you know, but
at the time I was thinking about

jumping over to Java and, um, The
C sharp was like, Oh, this is it.

This is what I want to do.

And so I went from being a VB, uh,
ASP developer to C sharp and ASP.

net and did that for a long time.

And anyway, back to my, my burnout and,
you know, being disconnected, uh, I went

to a local conference, uh, back then
it was DevLink in, it was in Nashville,

Tennessee, and I was one of the.

One of the best.

Yeah, it moved to, it later
moved to Chattanooga and was

there for, for several years.

But it started in Nashville.

Uh, I, I think it was 2008, maybe 2009.

And, uh, I was just so blown away with
the quality of speakers and the sessions.

It was just like, it met that need
that I had to like connect with.

Folks in the, in the tech community,
the dev developer community, and I kept

hearing resonated, uh, or what resonated
with me was speakers and the organizers

of the event talking about, Hey, you
need to, you need to get involved.

You need to get connected to
your, to your community and, you

know, give back to the community.

I thought, well, that's.

That's what I've been missing.

I need to do that.

I need to get, I need to start
going to some meetups and

I started going to meetups.

One thing led to another and within a
few years I, I was helping to run the

NET user group in Nashville, Tennessee.

And that led to, uh, someone
Coercing me into giving a talk

and, uh, it was, it was awful.

I did did terrible.

I, I would, I was the worst speaker in
speaker history, but, uh, it really,

it really sparked this interest with me
to like, I want to get better at this.

I want to, I want to do more of this.

And I ended up.

Submitting to conferences and
speaking at conferences and events

all over, uh, and within a few
years, I had given hundreds of talks.

I, I suppose, just became really active
in the speaker community and again, uh,

I hit this, this wall where I was feeling
like I wasn't having the impact that I

wanted to have with the audiences, uh,
felt, uh, I was, I was feeling burned out

and I was ready to take a year off and
just, You know, rethink my whole life, you

know, existential crisis kind of thing.

And I came across this, uh, this
video on YouTube, uh, by a guy named

Dan Rome called show and tell, where
he was demonstrating how you can

use hand drawn illustrations, very
simple stick figures, lines, arrows.

Basic shapes and how you could use that
to create content that was so much more

engaging than just bullet points and
stock photos on, uh, in your slides.

And I thought, man, that
looks like a lot of fun.

I want to try that.

I had this talk coming up.

Um, it was the 2015,
uh, Orlando Code Camp.

And I had a talk on Kanban.

It was like, well, duh, Kanban
is visualizing, uh, work.

I can use some fun stick figures
and visuals to make this, you know,

more entertaining and engaging.

And, uh, I, I had a...

An old iPad and a cheap 5 stylus.

And I started drawing some of
them, some art for my slides

and I wouldn't call it art.

It was, it was awful.

It was stick.

It was literally poorly drawn stick
figures and, uh, you know, stuff

that I could ink out on the iPad.

It was frustrating.

It took me a long, a long time to create.

The stuff that I wanted to create,
but I fell in love with it.

And, uh, from that point forward,
I, I started finding ways to combine

tech and humor and, uh, start drawing
more and more, you know, and social

media, uh, Twitter specifically became
like my, uh, accountability partner.

You know, I would, uh.

I would try to make, have a goal of
drawing, you know, one or two things

a week and posting it on social media.

And I get the, I get that feedback from
people who, who enjoyed it and that,

you know, just gave me more motivation
to keep, uh, keep it drawing these,

these terrible, uh, illustrations.

And eventually my skills got better and
better the more that I did it, uh, until

the point that I was able to, you know,
people started asking me, Hey, can you.

Can you draw something for I'll, I'll
pay you to draw something for me.

Like, wait, what?

I'm just doing this for fun.

Give me five bucks, I guess,
you know, buy me a coffee.

I'll, I'll draw it for you.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334: Well,
let's push a little further into that.

Cause I remember when you were starting to
do avatars for everyone and it seemed like

there was a point in time on Twitter when,
when Twitter was the big social media

platform for everyone, where every other.

Technologist had a David Neal avatar.

And I know I have at least two
or three David Neal avatars in

my Dropbox and my, my collection.

Um, my son has a David Neal
avatar from a very long time ago.

Um, how.

So you got this of people throwing
money at you to, to do drawings.

How did that kind of spark
to do more and more drawing?

And I guess more importantly,
like monetizing that skill that

you have, that's not next, not
necessarily your, your day job.

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Yeah,
so the, the funny secret to all that

is that even though I was getting some
interest in some of the drawings that

I was doing and people, uh, I think the
first time I made any money on a drawing

was I, I drew this, uh, silly, uh, Thing
that was, it was almost a, a viral thing.

It it, uh, on, on Twitter.

But somebody's like, I'll, I'll
pay for that artwork if you let me

print it and hang it in my office.

That was kind of like, uh, the, the first
time I, I made a, you know, real money,

uh, and it was like maybe 40 bucks, I
started with drawing myself, I drew an

avatar for myself that I use in my slides
is like my intro slide or my about me

slide kind of thing in the talks and, uh.

I was pretty proud of it, you know,
it took me a long time to do it, and

then I drew another version of that,
that was, you know, after my skills

got better, and then, um, eventually
I, I decided I want to try my hand

at, at drawing someone else, um.

And the first person I drew, and I
remember this, uh, was Ray Bango.

Uh, Ray's at Microsoft, uh, has
been at Microsoft more than once.

He's, he's currently at Microsoft.

Um, but I drew his, his.

You know, picture that I found on the
internet and I don't know why it was

just, you know, some kind of something
about the expression that he was

making in the photo or, or whatever.

I thought it would be fun to draw and I,
I really admired Ray, uh, because of his

involvement in the, in the community.

I had a lot of heroes, you know,
people that I would have, I was afraid

to talk to back, you know, because I
thought they were on some other, plane

or level, , that was not accessible.

He didn't pay me for it.

I just, I drew a picture of
him and I gave it to him.

I sent it to him, uh, privately.

And he didn't like it and he sent
me another photo and says, Hey, can

you, can you do this one instead?

And so I, I took that one and
I, and I worked even harder.

It took, I don't know how long it took
me, but it was, it was, it was stupid.

You know, how much time I put
into drawing this, this avatar

illustration of his face.

And he liked it and he put it on, he
changed his Twitter profile to that.

Illustration.

And it was like, it was such a rush.

It was like, here's one of my heroes,
you know, taking something that I

created and making it their profile.

And he's, he had thousands of followers,
you know, which I thought was amazing.

And, um, it got some attention.

Okay.

So I started drawing, you know,
just drawing for free, you know,

a few other people that I've.

I admired and that became my goals
like, Oh, I'm going to use this

as my, my way of progressing.

I'm going to get better at this.

So I got better, a little
bit better and better.

And then eventually, um, the, the startup
company that I was working for, uh, was

acquired and we, we couldn't announce, we
couldn't tell anybody, but it was, uh, we,

I knew that I was being laid off, right.

And, um, And I decided on a whim,
this was like early December, I posted

this totally bogus message on Twitter
that, Hey, I'm running a sale on

avatars, um, you know, 25 percent off.

And I was just, you know,
I was totally making it up.

Like I had never charged
anybody for an avatar.

So I said, okay, you know.

25 percent off of 40, you can,
you can buy an avatar and this was

2017, I and, um, that went nuts.

Like people were buying 25 at a
time, these avatars for me, from me.

And I had these examples that from
like free ones that I've done, you

know, as part of this marketing
campaign, which by the way, I,

I know nothing about marketing.

I'm still terrible at marketing.

Uh, that's something we can
talk about, but I run this.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334: someone
who is so bad at marketing, you did pretty

well for yourself during that marketing

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Yeah.

So I, I said, I'm running a sale 25
percent off and I was just totally making

it up, you know, and I got so many orders.

That I drew nonstop from like
December to like the middle

of January, 1st of February.

And I made enough money off of that
sale that I was able to buy myself a

new iPad and a, um, seems like something
else, but I, I probably made somewhere

around 2, 000 total on that sale.

And, and yeah, it really, it really
took off, folks started asking me or,

uh, wanting to order, uh, and at the
beginning I was just, I, you know, I

didn't know anything about setting up
any kind of payment system or anything.

I was just using PayPal, giving people
my PayPal profile to, to pay me.

Later, I would, uh, move to
Shopify and use other platforms.

Make that, that whole process
automated as much as possible.

But in the beginning, it was just
all manual and a ton of work.

And, you know, it, it really forced
me to, to build my, my skills pretty

quickly, because some people would love
what the stuff that I created for them.

Other people would be like.

very upset with the quality of the
drawings that I was creating, you

know, and it was all, it was the best
I could do at the time, but you know,

some people thought it was great.

Some people thought it was awful
because it was kind of awful.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
You know, in arts, one of those things

where it's very subjective, what one
person loves, another person might hate.

Um, if you ever gone to an art museum,
you look at something, the person

goes, that's a priceless piece of art.

You can see the artists, interpretation
of refraction and blah, blah, blah.

And someone else goes.

It looks like a dot on the, on the wall.

I don't understand anything about this.

, it's one of those things.

It's all very subjective, but I
know I've been super happy with

every day of a new avatar I've had.

And, uh, I'll, I'll tell
my story about my son.

So you and I were at.

Code stock.

Knoxville, Tennessee, and I brought
my son with me the one year he was

finally old enough to sit in a session
and we were sitting there and Dave,

you and I were chatting and I told
Zach, uh, about you and you drew an

avatar of Zach and he would not stop
talking about it entire drive home and.

I remember the next year we were going
back to code stock and I told Zach,

Hey, we're going back to code sock.

Uh, if you'd like to
come, he goes, well, Mr.

David be there.

That was his first question was,
uh, cause he wanted another avatar

of himself, um, because he had
grown his hair out a little bit.

He was a little bit older.

He, he wanted a.

A new picture every year that he saw you.

Um, so you definitely
left an impression on

Zach.

Uh, and I know everyone I've talked
to that has a David Neal avatar.

They're super happy with him.

Um, now let's talk about
some of the bigger projects.

You, you, not just avatars, you've gone
off to do other larger drawing projects.

Can you talk about a bigger project
you've done that might've brought

in slightly more than what an avatar

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: um.

Even early on, uh, folks would come
to me and say, Hey, can you, can you

draw, uh, maybe my, our, my whole team?

Um, and, uh, so it'd be like an
order of, You know, five drawings

or, you know, as much as eight or 10.

And then I started getting some orders
every now and you know, every now

and again, I'll get an order just
like, um, we have a small company.

Can you draw everyone in the company?

Like.

Okay, it's going to take me, take a
while, uh, uh, here's what I can do.

I can, I can draw maybe, three or four
a day and, you know, we'll work out

the details and that kind of thing.

Um, And then there's been events where
I've drawn speakers, uh, as speaker

gifts, as, as other events have done,
you know, like Star Trek has a, uh,

a comic artist that they've, they've,
uh, engaged every year for years now.

Uh, and those are really cool.

I think mine's, mine's back here
somewhere on my, uh, uh, my background.

Um, And then, uh, there's been like
conferences and events and companies who

have reached out to me and said, Hey,
can we do, um, you know, will you design

some stickers or t shirts or other types
of swag or, or something like that?

I'm trying to think there's,
there's been some book projects.

There's been, um, you know, just
incrementally, um, just fun and

challenging things that have come along.

Uh, and there's been some things that
I've turned down and it's like, well,

that's, that's outside of my expertise
and I'm not interested in learning.

Uh, that, that particular thing,
or that's, that's, uh, too big of a

project and I don't, I don't have the
time, or I can't meet the, the scope

of the, the timeline that you have.

Uh, try to be fair, because that's,
that's some, that, those are also some

hard lessons that I've had to learn of
like taking on too much work or taking

on something that's, uh, Uh, that I'm,
I'm pretty sure, um, I'm not going to

be able to meet what they're expecting.

Um, some, you know, it's been,
it's been tough to say no, but

that's, that's become a, as I've
matured, become a necessary thing.

Uh, I've, I've had software projects,
big, big projects that are opportunities

that have come along and it's like, you
know, can, can you build this for us?

We'll pay you well, but, uh, I've.

I've come to the conclusion that
it doesn't matter what you pay me.

I mean, that's great, but I can't do that.

I can't make that happen for you.

And it's been, it's been tough because
I've learned from failures in the past

that I can't say yes to everything.

And I can't, uh, you know, I'd,
I'd rather say no than to either.

Damage myself or, or my relationships
with my family or whatever to, for the

sake of trying to meet this, this demand.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
I think you're leading into one of

our other questions is how do you
balance all these different things?

like when you were bringing the
avatar requests, how did you balance

the pipeline of requests with also
trying to have your family life?

And then, uh, I know you were.

In the process of going
from one job to another.

How do you deal with all that
at the same time and stay sane?

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Yeah.

Um, well, earlier in my career I
made a lot of mistakes around that.

Um, I felt, you know, I always try to
make family my priority in the sense that.

When I got home from work, I would, I
would spend dedicated time with my family.

We'd always sit down to dinner together.

When they got old enough to have cell
phones, the cell phones did not, you

know, were not at the dinner table.

This was family time and I
would spend time, you know,

intentional time with my family.

You know, After dinner, we play games
or, or do whatever to always have

a bedtime routine of, of reading a
bedtime story and, and putting them

to bed and I, I would play a song
for them on the guitar that I wrote

called the, the, the good night song.

And this went on for, for
years and years where.

You know, once, once I put the kids in
bed, then I got the, the laptop back out

and I would work, uh, until whenever,
um, there were, you know, most nights

of the week I would, I would tell my
wife goodnight and I would continue

to work well past when I should have.

And this went on for, for a long time.

I was working for different startup,
you know, startup companies and I

thought that's what I had to do.

To, to, you know, get ahead or get, get
the job done or, you know, it was my

responsibility to, to make this happen.

And sometimes that was work that I was
doing for the, the company I worked for.

And sometimes it was work that I
was doing as on a contract basis.

I'm my, I have five
kids, son, number five.

Uh, who's now almost 20 years old, uh, I
remember sitting in the hospital room with

my laptop working on a project, an ASP.

NET project for a client, uh, you
know, on the other side of the country.

I'm like, looking back, I was like,
that, that is so stupid, you know,

what in the world was I thinking,
why, why would I sacrifice, when I

needed to be there and present for my,
my wife, I was in the room with her.

I was still talking to her and
stuff, but I was also working.

I was like.

That's, that's stupid.

I really cringe at that so, so bad because
I made so many of those kind of mistakes.

So, uh, in more recent years, as
I've gotten into doing illustration

work and things like that, I've,
I've tried to really work it in

as part of my, my daily routine.

So I'll set aside.

Some dedicated time in the morning before
I start my work routine to, like, do some

reading, uh, focus, you know, do some
focus on me, um, and then, and then I'll

focus on, uh, doing some illustration
work for an hour or so, whatever I can

get done in an hour's time, and then I'll
switch to, uh, work mode and, um, So,

my constraint is, is usually, you know,
what time can I spend in the mornings on

illustration work and then occasionally,
you know, can I spend, you know, a few

extra hours on a Saturday to wrap up a
bigger project or something like that.

But if it's, if it's anything more
than that, I, I can't justify.

Um, taking time away from either
my family or, or just leisurely

activities that are just as valuable
and important in the evenings, uh, That

it's like, I don't want to, I don't
wanna sacrifice any of that anymore.

And, you know, I, I need,
I need time for me too.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
I agree.

A hundred percent.

I covet my free time and anything that
tries to take me away from my free

time really has to go through a filter
in order to deem itself necessary.

So I respect that a hundred percent.

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333:
I like playing Zelda.

Uh, so the new Tears of the Kingdom
man, I love that game and I don't want

it to, like, consume my life, but I do
want to like, I want to have a couple

of hours that I can sit down and, and
not have any regrets or feel any shame

or, or, or anything about taking that
time to just enjoy playing a game.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334: I
bought, so this is complete side note.

I bought Zelda tears of the
kingdom fully intending to.

Jump right in and got
consumed with a work project.

So I gave it to my son and my son
has already gone through it twice.

And I'm, I need to restart it
because I got so far into it.

I had to stop.

I don't remember how to
play the game anymore.

So I'll have to restart so I can
learn the controls all over again.

Well, David, as we wrap up, if someone's
out there listening to go, I really.

I would love to be a
David Neal when I grow up.

Uh, what piece of advice
would you give to that person

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Well,
first of all, um, uh, whatever that thing

is that sparks your interest in that, uh,
you're like, man, I wish I could do that

because I remember going to a couple of.

Sessions where people had like artwork
or illustrations as part of their slides.

And I would, I would look at that
and go, wow, that's so amazing.

I wish I, I wish I could do that.

I remember going up to a speaker and
saying, you know, how did you do that?

He said, well, I, I paid someone
to create some artwork for me.

I'm like, oh, uh, well, I
want to be able to do that.

You know, not, not pay somebody,
you know, I don't, I want to

be able to do that myself.

Um, so I, my, my encouragement is that.

Whatever thing that's kind of like makes
your makes your heart skip a beat or is

like you see something go Oh, wow, that's
something I wish I could do that or

whatever One you can You, you, you're not
going to be Michael Jordan, but you can

play basketball and you can have a lot of
fun playing basketball and whatever skill

that you want to learn, you can learn it
and you can put the more time you put into

it, the better you're going to get, uh,
every new skill that you learn, you're

going to be terrible at it for a while.

So you're, you've got to have,
give yourself some grace.

And, and be patient and keep, you
know, making incremental steps toward

that, that thing that you want to do.

And that can apply to learning a
new programming language, because

we all know if we're programmers,
we can look back on code that we've

written, uh, six months ago or a year
ago and think, what was I thinking?

That's, that's awful.

Or, you know.

Last week.

Well, it's a skill, you know, it's
like you get better and better at it.

You know, at one point you had to learn
a whole new language like C sharp.

Right.

And you were terrible at it at first,
but you got better and better at it.

Um, and the same goes for like learning
a musical instrument, learning a new.

Language.

So you want to learn
Spanish or speak Japanese.

It's going to be painful and discouraging,
but if you keep practicing and doing

it more and more, you can do it.

I've got, if you go to
my website, reverendgeek.

com, I've got a bunch of posts on
my journey as an illustrator, uh,

about the books and the videos and
different things that I've used

that have helped me along the way.

Um, And if, if anyone, you know, if,
if you're interested specifically in

illustrations or drawing or music or any
of the things that I'm, I geek out about,

uh, I love talking to folks about that.

So feel free to reach out
to me and, uh, I hope you.

Help encourage you in any way that I can.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
Well, fantastic.

You are, you kind of jumped the lead.

I was going to ask you if you had
anything to promote and you just did it.

Is there anything else you'd
like to promote while you're,

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: sure.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we've talked about avatars
and, and illustrations, uh, in 2021, I

started a goal of like, I want to draw
a dad joke every day for, you know,

maybe 30 days and 30 days turned into
three months turned into an entire year.

So every day.

For, for 2021, I drew a dad joke,
and, uh, I had so many people

encourage me to turn that into
other things, and, um, I, I, I did.

Sometime in 2022, I turned that into
a illustrated book of dad jokes.

So, if you're interested in seeing
any of my artwork in, uh, In IRL,

in real life, uh, you can, you can
check out that book it's on Amazon.

There's also, um, you know, other types
of artwork and commissions and I'm,

I speak at conferences, um, all over.

So, uh, you know, be on the watch, uh,
mostly on my website and social media.

I'll, uh, I'll try to keep folks updated
on what I'm into and where I'm at.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
Sounds great.

And I will also promote the book
because I remember when you released

it, I bought it and my kids stole it.

Uh, and they took the book, which
I was trying to keep in somewhat

pristine condition is dog eared
and my kids all have favorite days.

And, uh, it was very
much a hit in our house.

So I highly recommend it to everyone.

All right, David, I appreciate
having you here so much.

It's been a pleasure and hopefully we'll,
we'll have you back at a later time.

Kind of give us an update
on how the drawing gig is.

But with that, thank you so much, David.

david-neal_1_09-27-2023_144333: Thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

kevin-griffin_1_09-27-2023_144334:
All right.

And thank you everyone else for
listening and we'll see you next time

on the multi threaded income podcast.

Thanks for listening to the
multi threaded income podcasts.

I've been your host, Kevin Griffin.

Please reach out to us on social
media at MT income, wherever you

get your socials from, and feel
free to join one of our upcoming

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com.

We'll see you next time.