Multithreaded Income Podcast

It's time for the multi
threaded income podcast.

We're like insurance for a
turbulent tech landscape.

I'm your host, Kevin Griffin.

Join me as I chat with people all around
the industry who are using their skills

to build multiple threads of income.

Let us support you in your career
by joining our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

Now let's get started.

Kevin Griffin: Welcome back to the show.

Everyone.

I have an extremely special guest today.

Mr.

Aaron Francis.

How are you today, Aaron?

Aaron Francis: I am doing great.

It's always a joy to talk to you.

We've known each other
at this point, ten years?

Eight years?

Something like that?

Kevin Griffin: I, uh, what I tell people.

Is I knew Aaron before he was famous and

Aaron Francis: Which could include
right now, just for the record.

Kevin Griffin: no, no, no.

You're, you're incredibly famous and
I didn't have you on the show earlier

just because I wanted to save you until
I had more than like 10 downloads.

And I think we're getting to that point.

So everyone, Aaron Francis is on
the show and, uh, yeah, we've,

we've known each other through
our, we have a business slack.

That we were both in, I think we both been
in for over 10 years, uh, close to that.

And.

I tell everyone, you got, you got
to find your group, you got to find

your core tribe of people and you've
been a part of that for forever.

I don't think we need to go in
too much detail of our, of our

group because there's a lot of.

There's a lot of people in there.

You probably wouldn't expect

Aaron Francis: It's a secret cabal, but
you gotta, you gotta find your secret

cabal of friends that you can talk to.

Kevin Griffin: but it's been
nice to just kind of watch

everyone become more successful.

It's like, um, what's the saying?

Like rising tide raises all ships.

And I feel like everyone
in that group who.

Has been active or the past couple of
years, everyone's just gotten better.

Aaron Francis: Mm

Kevin Griffin: And it's fun
to watch people be successful.

And I really attribute a lot to you.

You've just been super
successful and I feel like

almost everything you've touched.

And so it was actually a real
pleasure for me to chat with you

a little bit deeper about this.

Cause we don't get this
opportunity very often.

Aaron Francis: Well, you're
kind, you're kind to say so.

Where do you want to start?

I'm an open book.

Kevin Griffin: Well, let's start
with what you're doing now.

So try hard studios, uh,
just anyone who's not.

Up to speed with what you're doing.

What's TriHard Studios.

What's the, what's the goal with that?

Aaron Francis: yeah.

So my friend Steve and I, um, just
recently, like literally in the past,

you know, two or three months, um,
I've started a business, um, called

try hard studios and we make video.

We make video That
developers want to watch.

And so the way that that, um, expresses
itself as sometimes on YouTube.

So I have like, uh, my personal
YouTube channel, um, and

sometimes also with courses.

So right now I'm working on a big, uh,
course for a database called a SQL light.

Um, so it's kind of like.

Um, it's actually, actually like the
most widely used database in the world.

Um, but very few web people use it.

And so I'm having a fun time, um, learning
all about that and translating it into

a thing that would be useful for more
like web or application developers.

Kevin Griffin: It's actually funny.

You're the first person I've seen talk
seriously about SQL lite in 15 years.

Uh,

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Griffin: because
you're, you're right.

I've only ever seen it in.

Not in web applications, but in
like small desktop applications or

background services and stuff like that.

It's never been for web.

Are you trying to promote it
as a thing to use for web apps?

Or is it more central for what
it's been used for for 20 years?

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

So it's been used for, you know, You
know, literally, I think it was written

in the year 2000, maybe 99 or something.

Um, and it's incredibly good for,
uh, it's an embedded database.

So you will, you know, on your, your
iPhone or your Android, you probably

have a hundred to a thousand libraries.

SQLite databases just on your
phone for various different things.

Um, and it's just so rock solid
because it's been battle tested in

environments where the power could go
away or the flash drive could be pulled

out in the middle of a transaction.

And so it's just incredibly rock solid
and the format super stable that it's

actually the archival format of the
library of Congress here in the U S.

And so it's a very good
database, but it's got this.

You know, giant glaring limitation
that it's not client server.

So you have to like be in the
same place as the database file.

And that's really limited a
lot of people using it on web.

And so my goal is to, um, teach
people how to use it, but also teach

web developers that they can use it.

And it'll probably.

Honestly, it'll probably be
good enough for the first many,

many years of your application.

And if you don't make it past
those many years, then that's okay.

You haven't wasted a lot of time
setting up some other database.

Yes,

Kevin Griffin: So many people go
into a greenfield application.

In thinking about scaling, I need
to scale to million concurrent

requests, and really, they need
five concurrent requests per second.

And I'm gonna have to pick that up.

I don't use sequel light for for web
applications, but I like to scale.

Talk about potentially using it.

I feel like there's use cases for that.

Plus, uh, if you're using
production, my SQL or Postgres or

SQL server or something else, um,
yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

How'd you come up with
SQL light as the topic

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

So that's kind of interesting.

So Steve and I both worked at a
company before we started our own and

we got caught up in a giant layoffs.

So they laid off all the marketing team,
all the sales team, a bunch of engineers,

a bunch of security people, um, like
fully half the company got let go.

And so at that point we were both
kind of like, well, this, this sucks.

What do we, what do we do now?

And one of the first.

One of the first calls I had
post layoff was with the CEO

of a company called Terso.

And I got on the phone with him and
was like, Hey, I would, you know,

cause it's a database company.

I just came out of a database company and
I was like, Hey, I'd love to hear about

your company, what you got going on.

And he was like, Whoa, let me just.

Just like, you should go out on your own.

This is the CEO of a company I
thought I was interviewing with.

And he's like, you should go out on your
own and we will be your first client.

Like, I don't have a job for you, but I
want to tell you you've got what it takes.

And I was like, what is going on here?

This is, this is wild.

And so I took, you know, I took a
bunch more calls during the layoff.

And then finally it was like, no, we
should, we should start our own thing.

And so then I circled back to
Glauber, who's the CEO of Terso.

And was like, Hey, what if,
what if we took you up on that?

What if we really, you really were
our first client and we create a SQL

light course and torso sponsors it.

So torso is, um, hosted SQL light.

So they can take your SQL light and
make it distributed and put embedded

replicas in your different apps all
over the world, stuff like that.

So it's very, very interesting.

And he was like.

Yeah, sounds great.

And so coming out of my old job,
which I was a database educator,

a company that doesn't matter.

I was a database educator and I thought I
kind of have like, um, I kind of have the

attention of, of database people and full
stack developers, and they kind of already

view me as an authority on databases.

And so this feels very like, um, this
feels very directionally correct.

And so we started, uh, with SQL light.

And then after that.

Um, we have a Postgres
course coming as well.

So kind of trying to stay in that
database vein for as long as I can.

Cause that's kind of where
people, where they know me.

Kevin Griffin: How'd you even
get into that niche of databases?

Cause I know, I know your
background and we'll, we'll talk

about your background before for
tech, but niching into databases,

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: we get there?

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

It was one of those things where,
um, It was one of those things

where I kind of thought everybody
knew more than me about everything.

Um, and I started writing a little bit and
talking a little bit online about database

performance and database optimizations
and stuff, just because I grew up.

You know, I grew up PHP, MySQL,
LAMP stack, you know, MAMP or WAMP.

Uh, I just grew up on that stack
and it was in that, in that

time, you just did everything.

Like you just, you had to
know how the database worked.

Right.

And I come by it honestly, cause my
dad was a DBA for his whole career

for, with, uh, Microsoft SQL server.

And so like, I just kind of like
knew and liked the database.

Um, and so I'm in the
Laravel ecosystem a lot.

And I started talking about database
stuff and people were like, Oh

dude, I didn't know any of that.

And I'm like, really?

Oh man, maybe like, maybe I do have a
little bit of knowledge here, which I

think is always interesting that, you
know, how much we discount ourselves.

Um, so I started writing about it.

And, you know, I bought some more
books so that I could, I could like

actually bone up on my knowledge.

Cause I'm not, I don't have
a computer science degree.

Um, so I started reading
and writing about it.

And that's when the CEO of the
database company that I used to

work at reached out and was like,
Hey, I see what you're doing.

Do you want to just come do that
for our company and get paid for it?

I was like, yeah, that's, that's awesome.

I would love to do that.

So it was kind of like, It came out of
me naturally, but other people, like,

I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't
been putting myself out there and saying

like, Hey, here's some content and
people being like, Whoa, this is great.

Kevin Griffin: So you're doing the
course on high performance SQLite.

Is that the only income that you're
really expecting to try hard studios?

Are you, are you really going
deep on YouTube as well?

What other forms of income should
the studio be looking forward to?

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

So we are definitely
looking forward to YouTube.

Income and looking back on
it, we've already got it.

Like it's, um, we've, this is, this is
our model is I do developer videos, put

them on the YouTube channel and hopefully,
um, you know, hopefully some people

come along and want sponsored videos.

And that has been the case so far.

We've already, you know, we've
already booked and shipped and

gotten paid for several of those.

I think going forward,
I'm looking for more.

Like durable long term channel sponsors.

Um, so we can say like hey company XYZ
for the next I don't know, two months.

We'll put a mid roll in every, you
know, every video that we do or

something like that That's kind of
what I'm looking for Because making

one off videos is tough Because I want
it to kind of be authentic, right?

I don't want to just So I kind of have to
like research and use the thing and get

used to it and understand the trade offs.

And so it's just a lot of
work for a dedicated video.

Um, but yeah, so the YouTube is a
big, a big portion of our income.

We're hoping the courses, the course,
we, we will sell the course to end users.

So there's money there.

And TURSO is sponsoring the course,
um, so there's money there as well.

So TURSO is a part of the course and
they paid us for that privilege, but

we're also selling it to end users, um,
so we'll get, we'll get paid for that.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, okay.

I didn't think I knew that.

I thought it was like a, the
West boss style of company is.

Paying for the creation of the course
and the sponsorship of the course.

So it could be provided freely to whomever
might need it, but they are just, uh, they

are a name on the course and you're still
going to sell it separately from, okay.

Aaron Francis: Exactly.

So our goal, our goal with
the course is to teach.

Honest to goodness, open source SQLite.

That being said, Turso has made a
lot of these things really easy.

So let me show you exactly what you
need to do to do everything yourself.

Also, course sponsor, Turso, you
should go check them out because

you wouldn't have to do any of this.

And so hopefully it kind of, it
kind of lines up well, um, in

that the learner gets actual data.

like genuine knowledge, but the
sponsor gets like attention and

hopefully customers because those
people are going to be like, yeah,

I don't want to do it the hard way.

Kevin Griffin: What design considerations
are you taking for the course to make

it not seem like a, just a sleazy.

Ad for the sponsor.

Aaron Francis: I think, I think
the, um, the overarching principle

is I'm going to teach you SQLite.

Um, now, like, that includes, if
we're talking about a, in a web

scenario, what if you have two servers?

Well, shoot, SQLite is one file, right?

So now what do we do?

Um, so there are ways to, There
are open source tools around that,

something like, you know, Lightstream
or something to replicate or to get

backups out or something like that.

And so we'll cover some of that.

So my goal is always that the learner
walks away knowing everything they need

to know about SQLite to be successful.

Also, they walk away knowing if
they want to take the easy path.

If they want to take the done for
you path, in my opinion, Terso is the

best way to do that, but if they want
to take the DIY path, you are armed

with enough knowledge to do that.

Um, and so that, that's kind of the angle.

And honestly, when I was at the old
company, that's how I did it there too.

I taught, I taught.

MySQL, like through and through
open source version of MySQL.

And also if you want to put your
MySQL database somewhere, I think

our company is the best place to do
that, but you don't have to do that.

And it worked incredibly well.

Um, so that's, that's kind of the goal
for the Terso SQLite course as well.

Kevin Griffin: I want you to talk
about the difference in production

quality of a try hard studio video
versus, I don't know, your most

typical video on developer topics.

Like you all, you and Steve do a superior
job of anything we've ever seen before.

Could you kind of talk about like,
what's the secret sauce of the

production value for try hard?

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Um, you know, I'm, I'm happy to give
away all the secrets, the secrets.

You just got to work really hard.

I mean, that, that, that
really is a lot of it.

I think there's an un.

There's an unspoken thing there,
too, that you have to, like, you

have to personally have good taste.

Um, and that is, that's a big part,
I think, of what Steve and I, uh,

have, and Steve has it in spades,
and I, I have some of it, but Steve

is like, he is a, Video producer.

Like he, he is a video guy, not
like a screencasting guy like me.

He's like, I could do cinematography.

And I'm like, well, as long as I can
record my screen and sit here, I'm happy.

So I think a big part of it is we know.

We know what we like and
what we, what we don't like.

And I think we have taken
the time to identify.

10 to 15 to 20 little things
that add up to make the video

feel super, super polished.

And so, you know, setting up this
studio in here was a big, a big thing.

And Steve helped me like dial in
the lighting to make sure that I,

you know, looked good on camera.

Like the way that I record, I record,
like I ended up doing it a lot.

I ended up redoing a lot of stuff.

stuff and that's, that is solely
or primarily because I want the

final video to not be super choppy.

So I think there are
some YouTubers that like.

Well, chop up literally every third
or fourth word and it just becomes a

series of jump cuts and that's a style
and I don't, I don't think that any,

any style is ever objectively wrong.

I just don't like that style.

And so I think Steve and I have
developed what our style is and we're

willing to put in just like the work
to make it look like we want it to.

to look.

And so like Steve is, you know, matching
the rounded corners of the camera inlay

with the UI that's shown on the screen
and color correction and all this kind of

stuff that like other people would look at
and say, Oh, that's just a little detail.

And we're like, yeah, it is a little
detail and we're going to do it.

Kevin Griffin: And it's the
combination of all these things.

I feel like it's easier to learn.

If you're not put off by jump
cuts and bad audio and bad video.

And I say this, I'm like, I'm
looking at my video right now.

My video is awful and I'm super jealous
of, of your setup, but I have also not put

in the effort to, to try to clean it up.

And I, and I'm inspired to do that now.

I just need to get off my butt, but
yeah, I've, I watched those videos

and I generally don't like watching
developer YouTube I like to polish

videos, but I watch your videos.

I don't even do Laravel.

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: I'll watch it and
go, that's really interesting

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: know and follow along.

And it's scripted.

I've heard you on other
podcasts, talk about that.

You'll go through the entire in and demo,
throw it all the way and then record it.

So you have that more seamless.

All right, do a than B than C.

It just makes for a
better video in the end.

And

Aaron Francis: I think, I think there's
a, um, so I, I, I'm of two minds.

One, one mind is you should just
start, start wherever you are with

whatever you have and do whatever you
need to, to get anything out the door.

Yes.

Then after that, I personally think,
um, I, I think there is a little

bit of a shift going on in developer
video that like we've been doing,

we've been doing like the, the live
stream kind of chaotic, kind of like.

Dark neon.

Um, we we've been doing
that for a long time.

And so just when I'm looking
at that, I think, man, it

could be a little more fresh.

Right.

And so we went, you know, in
here we went with light mode.

Like my studio is, is, is light
and airy and it has plants

and the background is white.

And when I use the editor, like when
I'm showing my screen, I'm in, I'm in

light because I think there is like a
little bit of a shift to more like more.

Polished and less, um, and I don't
mean this in a disparaging way,

but like, gamer in the basement.

That has been, like, that's an
identifiable vibe, and that has

been the vibe for a long time.

And I think we're kind of
like, hey, let's, let's put

some effort into this now.

Kevin Griffin: think we've talked
about try hard quite a bit.

Let's move backwards into your life before
try hard because I know you've had a lot

of interesting endeavors before that.

So you worked at database company
and Were you doing anything on

the side at database company?

I know you had YouTube.

right.

Let's, let's get into some of the things
you were doing outside of the day job.

Aaron Francis: Yeah,
outside of the day job.

Um, so we're here.

It's multi, it's multi
threaded income, right?

It was, we got it.

We got to talk about the side stuff.

Um, so I've been doing side stuff
for forever, as you well know.

The big one, the big one in the past
year And a half, maybe, maybe just the

past year is, um, uh, it's another, it's
another course actually at screencasting.

com.

And so I took everything I
know about recording video and

creating screencasts and teaching
so that people can understand.

And I turned that into a video course
and put that available for sale.

And so when I, you know,
when I got laid off.

It sucked, of course, but it
was also like, I'm not starting

from a standing stop, right?

I, I'm already in motion.

Things are already happening.

And if I decide to, which I did,
I could just pick up those things

and push them a little bit.

Further or a little harder.

And that's, that's kind of the plan.

So screencasting.

com has now been folded into
the try hard studios brand.

And so we'll be after this SQL light
course, we'll be readdressing that

course and making that even better.

And so these things like.

These, these threads that have been
open for a while, um, really, really

paid off when, when the downturn, my,
my personal employment downturn hit.

Kevin Griffin: Do you feel your life
got easier or harder post layoff?

Aaron Francis: So much easier.

Kevin Griffin: So much easier.

So even though you're fully
responsible for your ends meet

and doing all this extra work,
it's still easier in the long run.

Aaron Francis: much easier for, I
think, I think for a few reasons.

One is screencasting did pretty well.

I think I've said publicly on
other podcasts, it's, it's done

a hundred thousand dollars.

And so That's pretty good on
top of a full time tech job.

And so when, when the storm comes and
it's like, Oh shoot, I just lost my full

time tech job, but I kind of been stocking
away some money for a little while.

So I'm okay.

And then all of a sudden, like, so
that's one reason is that the, uh,

the projects produced income, which
provide a buffer, which is huge because

I have four kids, I've got four kids.

I've got two sets of twins, so I've got
a lot of mouths to feed, um, and then the

other reason I feel so, like, at ease is
I just have, it feels like, it feels like

I just have so much more time because I'm
not constantly serving two masters, right?

I'm not trying to do my day job faithfully
and then also push on side stuff.

Now it's like.

You just, you have the one thing and
the one thing is actually many things,

but I don't have like, it's all mine.

You know, it's all me and Steve together.

We're not like, Oh shoot.

I, you know, I can't do this until 5
PM because at 5 PM, you know what I

want to do, go home and see my kids.

And so a lot of that stress is
kind of just like melted away

and it helps that we know.

One, I had a buffer, and two, we've
already landed sponsors for these

courses, and so there's a little, like,
I'm not rushing to get this course out

the door to make money, because that's
what the sponsorship is for, and so a

lot of these things have come together
to, to kind of be like, okay, you

can, you can work hard, but you don't
have to stress out about everything.

Kevin Griffin: Remind
me, does your wife work?

Aaron Francis: Uh, harder than I do,
but she doesn't get paid for it, so

she works, she works at home, yeah.

Kevin Griffin: So you are essentially
the breadwinner for the family.

You have to go out and make the money.

Is it, was it any stress on your
wife when you lost your job?

Uh, I know that can be a difficult thing
for spouses who don't, don't really

under, my wife doesn't necessarily
understand what, I do every day.

Um, yeah,

Aaron Francis: what I do every day.

Um, yeah, when I called her,
she was foremost to her great

credit supportive of me.

Um, so I, you know, I was up here in
the studio when I got the call from my

boss and then I immediately called her
and she was just like, I'm so sorry.

We will figure it out.

Like I understand, like
it's going to be okay.

Um, and beyond that, I mean, unless,
unless she's not telling me, which

I, she tells me everything it's
been, it's been totally fine.

I think, um, she puts.

She, she does and has put a lot
of trust in me for a long time

to, to basically figure out the
income side of our, of our family.

Like we have pretty traditional
gender roles in our family.

She works really hard.

I work really hard.

We just work really hard
at different things.

And so it has been very nice to have
a spouse that is so supportive and

Believes in me to, to figure it all out.

Um, and of course that is like, that
is a, uh, uh, not a bad burden, but

that is like a dude, that's a burden
or a duty for me to bear up under.

And I think, you know,
that, that's a good thing.

Like that is, it is a responsibility
for me as a husband and a father.

So far it's, it's working out pretty well.

Kevin Griffin: I'm in a similar camp.

My wife spends the day with the kids.

She homeschools.

So she is constantly in mom mode

Aaron Francis: she's working
way harder than any of us.

All

Kevin Griffin: is.

And I feel that responsibility of,
I, I literally have one job is to

provide for the family so she can
continue doing what she needs to do.

She doesn't have to go to work.

Uh, the kids benefit from having
mom and dad around all the time.

It literally five minutes before we
jumped on this call, I went inside,

said hi to everyone, just checked in.

Um, my son got his first mowing
gig down the street, so he mowed

a yard and I helped him with that.

And.

And just generally checking on everyone.

And then I just walk out to my
headquarters and, and to, uh, do my work.

Um, and we won't even talk about the
shed quarters because you used to have

a way better shed quarters than I did.

And then you gave that up
for a full on apartment.

So, um,

Aaron Francis: Shedquarters was awesome.

You know, rest in peace.

We, we, it's, it still exists.

We just sold the house cause you
know, we had the second set of twins.

Um, and I am now here in
a one bedroom apartment.

That's like three minutes from my house.

And this is now my, uh, my
coworking space, but it's just me.

And so I've turned it into
a YouTube studio slash, you

know, research headquarters.

And it's, it's pretty awesome.

Kevin Griffin: Are there other sets in
the studio that we just haven't seen yet?

Aaron Francis: There, there is one
in progress, um, so I am in, I am

in what would traditionally be the
bedroom if I were a normal human and

not just like a guy working here.

This is the bedroom.

Out there is the living room and I
have, um, I just got a new couch and

I'm going to put up a dark background
behind it and so I can do a little

bit more like lifestyle content,
talking head, that kind of stuff out

in the, uh, out in the other room.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, I
can't wait to see that.

Aaron Francis: Yeah, it's going to be fun.

Kevin Griffin: So you had screencasting.

com.

People should go pick that up
if they want to learn the, I

guess the try hard method, right?

Aaron Francis: Yeah, exactly.

That is exactly right.

Kevin Griffin: Uh, now I know you
had other courses before that.

Do you want to go even farther
back to some of your older

Aaron Francis: Yeah, let's go all the way
back, all the way back to the beginning.

I, uh, got my degree from Texas
A& M in accounting, um, and I

got my master's in accounting.

And then I spent one year as an
accountant and I was like, this sucks.

I got to get out of here.

Um, but I loved, I loved, loved,
loved accounting in college.

And so after I was gone, um, I created,
um, Basically introduction to financial

accounting for college sophomores.

Um, I had spent many years in school
tutoring it to individuals and just like,

so that was my first like kind of gig
in college was I'm, I'm an accounting

tutor and it was fun and I loved it.

And so when I got out and quit,
uh, accounting, I was like,

how can I kind of want to have
something that pays me on the side.

And so I created, um, an accounting
course and that has made over

a hundred thousand dollars.

I mean, it's not, it's not, it's been
live for the shoot, um, eight years,

seven years, something like that.

So it's not like a huge,
um, source of income.

But it's better than a poke in the eye.

And I haven't rerecorded
the videos in seven years.

Cause you know, one thing that
doesn't change, accounting,

that didn't change at all.

Um, and so yeah, students pay
me 39 a pop and that's it.

That, I mean, it's just,
it's very straightforward.

I mean, I, I kind of
love it for its purity.

Like I will teach you accounting
and you will pay me for it.

Great.

Kevin Griffin: And it's still going.

People can still buy it today.

Do they still buy it today?

Aaron Francis: I actually turned
off payments this past semester

because I, I I had to get something
up to date with the Facebook login.

And I was like, I can't do this right now.

So I just turned off payment.

So everybody's getting it for free right
now, but yeah, it's still, it's still

up and still online and hopefully by
next semester, it's about to be summer.

So I have a good amount of time,
hopefully by, you know, August or

September, I'll have the payments back on.

Um, and I can start getting, it's
usually eight to 15, 000 a semester.

Um, and at this point, like.

Also, better than a poke in
the eye, so I'm gonna, I'll,

I'll have to turn that back on.

Um, but yeah,

Kevin Griffin: it, it goes back to
prove you pick an evergreen topic.

Aaron Francis: mm

Kevin Griffin: So accounting
it's pretty evergreen.

It never changes.

Uh, SQLite,

Aaron Francis: that's the hope,

Kevin Griffin: far as I'm
aware, is pretty evergreen.

It

Aaron Francis: the hope,

Kevin Griffin: in 20 years.

Aaron Francis: mm hmm.

Kevin Griffin: you're not picking
a random thing on AWS that's

going to change next year.

And then we have to re
report all the material.

Aaron Francis: worse,
something JavaScript.

Can you imagine?

Be out of date before I hit publish.

Yeah, like that.

There really is.

There really is an art to picking, um,
course material because it's a huge amount

of work and you don't want to redo it.

Every six months or even every
two years, for goodness sakes.

I mean, screencasting is the
same way like that, that could

still be relevant in five years.

Maybe some of like the software specifics
had changed, but the course is not

how to do this thing in software.

The course is how to do this thing.

And I will show you a few of
the software bits, but it's like

philosophically, how do you record
and edit and produce and teach?

And so hopefully That's going to stay
relevant for a long time, but yeah,

it's a real, it's a real, like you,
you really have to think about is this

thing going to be relevant in a year
because you're about to embark on a

whole lot of work to, to record a course.

Kevin Griffin: If you went to school
for accounting, how did you make

the jump into software development?

Aaron Francis: I grew up
programming just at home for fun.

Um, and.

I was doing stuff on the side while in
college, you know, high school, college

out of college, I was, I was doing
programming on the side and I just, I

had a blog and I was writing about like.

At the time there was a PHP
framework called YI, which is

impossible to say out loud.

Y I I YI.

Um, and I was just, as I learned
something new or like how to do

something, I would write a blog post
and be like, Hey, I just learned this.

Um, which is a lot less pressure than let
me teach you how to be the best developer.

It's.

I learned this and maybe
it's interesting to you.

Um, so that, that's just like a side note.

That's a good way to approach content
is what if, what have you learned?

I bet other people might want to learn it.

And a company contacted me,
um, just out of the blue.

Um, I live in Dallas, Texas, and
they were in Ventura, California.

And they were like, Hey.

Can you work for us?

And I was like, sure, that sounds great.

And so I, you know, went back and
forth to California and this was

before I was married and had kids.

And so I did that and then, um, started
getting serious with my now wife,

Jennifer, and I was like, I got it.

I can't be in California two
weeks out of every month.

And so then I just found
a local startup job here.

And that was kind of, that was kind of it.

At that point, I was.

I was in.

And so, you know, I think, um, proof
of work is pretty important and

blogging and videos and, uh, open
source is all, is all proof of work.

And that gets you in,
that gets you in the door.

Kevin Griffin: I have mentioned
you on the podcast multiple times,

either directly or indirectly.

And you coined a term that I love
and it's called Lux surface area.

I want you to just talk more about that
for a couple of minutes because you've

had some amazing luck, at least publicly
that I've seen in, in your career, but

it's all the fruits of the hard work
that you've done leading up to it.

Um, so I would love for you to talk more
about luck surface area, because I think

that's the most beneficial thing that
anyone could get out of this conversation.

Aaron Francis: Yeah, totally.

Um, to, to give, to give credit where
it's due, it was coined by Jason Roberts

on tech zing in like 2009 or something.

Um, and so the, the idea there is
that like you have a surface area, you

have, um, some amount of, of material
upon which luck can fall, right?

Luck is very random, very hard
to predict, but you can catch it.

Right.

And the bigger, the bigger your luck
surface area, the more luck you're

just going to catch as it flies by.

And so the way to increase your
luck surface area is, is twofold.

Do things and tell people that's it.

That like, those are the rules.

And I think, um, as
developers primarily, we.

We do a lot of things and then we
just never tell anybody about it.

Right.

And then as like, uh, I don't
know, cause this is derogatory.

I don't know.

Somebody else, all they
ever do is talk about stuff.

They never actually do anything.

Right.

And it's like, okay, you, you kind
of, you're paper thin at that point.

And people see through it.

The real, the real power is
in doing something and, and

telling people about it.

And so the way that that, Actually
manifests itself in the real world

is you write a blog post about it.

You submit a conference talk,
you make an open source package.

You, you, you record a YouTube video.

You, you put out a tweet for goodness
sakes, like you just tweet, Hey, I

learned this thing, or wow, look at this.

You know, whatever I just built
and you put that out on Twitter.

And the interesting thing is, um, you
cannot optimize or you cannot predict

what is going to come from that.

And that's kind of like, that's
the, um, that's the fun part, but

that's also the frustrating part.

So if you have a very specific
goal in mind where you're

like, I need to get a job.

Either in this industry or
with this company or I need to

get in front of this person.

I don't really have a lot
of strategies for that.

What I have strategies for is, hey,
do you want your life to be better?

Well, start putting yourself out
there and your life will be better.

How?

I can't exactly explain, but some of
the things that have happened to me,

um, I've gotten a couple of jobs through
like, literally through putting myself

out there, the CEO of my old company
DM to me and was like, come work here.

I read your blog post.

I wrote a post, put it on Twitter.

It ended up on Hacker News.

Somebody sent it to him.

Then he DMed me.

There's no way for me to orchestrate that.

There's no way for me to like
make that happen, but it's

good that it happened to me.

The other stuff that's happened is
like, I've been invited to speak at

conferences and like, that is a dream.

Like that's a dream come true.

And I can't force that to happen, but
I can like influence the odds by being

By putting stuff out there and then,
you know, I just make friends like

it's just, you make a lot of friends
when you're out in the conversation,

you know, mucking around with people.

It's like you make a bunch of friends.

And so I think that is like that
has been the, uh, if there's an

inflection point in my career and
there is, it's when I decided.

I am not gonna, I'm not
gonna hold back anymore.

I'm just going to put out
everything that I possibly can.

And that is when like my
career just totally changed.

Kevin Griffin: What's the, I guess the
highlight of your career up to this point?

Aaron Francis: Oh, it's
gotta be doing my own thing.

It's gotta be this past.

And every single thing that I've
done until now has led to this.

I mean, being able, being able to not
have a W 2 job and still, like, have

enough money, and like, the opportunities,
the opportunities for making way more

than my W 2, They're right there.

I just need to seize them.

And that is by far the most exciting
and the thing I'm most proud of.

And, and frankly, everything that I have
done has like, has, has led me to be

here today, which is kind of exciting.

Kevin Griffin: On your other podcast
that you do, uh, I listened to an

episode you were talking about, uh,
dealing with health care, um, health

insurance, because we're both U.

S.

citizens and we have to deal with this
crazy thing called health insurance.

What did you eventually end up falling on?

Because I know that's an important
thing for a lot of people out there.

Aaron Francis: that was, that was
my biggest, that was the thing

that was holding me up the most.

Um, you know, stay at home,
wife slash mom, uh, four kids.

I, I have a type one diabetes,
so like we're not a cheap family.

Like we, and we can't get by,
unfortunately we can't get by with

one of those like faith based,
um, health sharing programs, which

we would otherwise qualify for.

But I have type one diabetes
and it's like, ah, shoot, you

can't, yeah, you're no good here.

And so figuring out healthcare was
a huge, a huge, uh, like barrier to

entering this self employed world.

I got the Cobra notice, which for
people outside the U S is like, you,

you as an individual can pay to continue
your employer sponsored healthcare.

You just have to pay the full
portion, like the full amount.

And we got it.

And it was 3, 800 a month.

And I was like, well, I know
what I'm not going with.

Um, and so I found, um, I found through,
uh, through another podcast, actually,

that I listened to, I found leg up health,
um, which is basically independent agents.

And so I talked, I spoke to their
independent agent and we had a couple

of zoom calls and he walked me through.

Navigating the marketplace.

Um, they, you know, I think Obamacare,
the marketplace and the thing that

I didn't realize was, um, Obamacare.

Yes, provides the marketplace, but it
more coordinates the tax savings of.

Being a self insured basically person.

And so what I was looking at was the
sticker price, but I wasn't looking

at like what the, the true price
would be after tax credits, which are

immediate, not when you file your taxes.

And so like our healthcare now is like.

800 a month for a family
of six or something.

And that's because that's because
those tax credits come off the top.

Now at the end of the year or come tax
time, if try hard studios has made a

ton of money and my income has gone way
up, I'm going to have to true up some

of those tax credits because those are
going to go away, but right now, as it

stands, You know, I don't, I'm not going
to have a lot of money on my tax return.

And so I get a lot of
those credits up front.

And so a lot of stuff I didn't know.

I would definitely recommend talking
to an independent, uh, agent or broker,

Kevin Griffin: I'll tell you my story.

Aaron Francis: please.

Yep.

Kevin Griffin: different state to state.

So you're in Texas, I'm in Virginia.

So anything I say about
Virginia doesn't apply to Texas.

Anything in Texas doesn't
apply to Virginia.

It doesn't apply to California,
whatever state you're in.

Um, so went through the
process of figuring out.

What plan we wanted to be
on through the marketplace.

And that's all I had access to.

Virginia now has a state marketplace,
which is like slightly better, but

we were going through the healthcare.

gov marketplace and they do a
questionnaire asking you what your

income is going to be for the next year.

And they, they asked a
series of bad questions.

It's government.

And they asked me like, what
was your income for October?

And I said, I, I know the question
you're asking me and it's the wrong

question because I didn't make very
much money in October, but I did make

a ton of money in all the other months.

So I answered the question and if
you went back and look through my PNL

statements and such, it would, it would
show I made very little money in October.

So they said, Oh, well you
qualify for all these subsidies.

And I go, no, I don't.

Aaron Francis: No, I don't
and I don't want to get hosed.

Yeah

Kevin Griffin: yeah.

But I, so I played the game of I'll
take your subsidies because I could

do far more important stuff with
my money than give it to you and

give it to the health insurance.

So I did a year of
highly subsidized health

Aaron Francis: Mm hmm

Kevin Griffin: and I paid it off.

And I got the tax bill and
tax bill is about, I mean, I'm

just throwing the numbers out.

It's about 12, 15, 000.

Um, so I may, I made a lot of money and
I had to pay, I had to pay all the stuff

Aaron Francis: Yeah, hopefully you
use those savings in the meantime to

Kevin Griffin: it was all in investments
in high yield savings accounts.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I'm trying to
do the proper investment stuff

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: money.

But, uh, like my premium should
have been 1, 700 a month for

a family of five in Virginia.

And.

I was instead paying like 700 a month.

I was paying half almost of
what I should have been paying.

And it came back to get me because
I had a, and on top of that, I

had my best year and the entire
career I've been independent.

Uh, but now like Virginia's
changed his laws again.

So now I'm on a small,
small business employer plan

Aaron Francis: Oh Interesting,

Kevin Griffin: which it's, It
means I pay the same amount of

money, but for a better plan.

Aaron Francis: huh?

Cool.

Kevin Griffin: instead of a bronze level,
you know, emergency, in case you're going

to die plan, it's a silver PPO plan.

I have better access to
my doctors and all that.

And I have a HSA that goes along with it.

So high deductible, so high premium,
but it's overall a better plan, but

I, I don't get the subsidies for that.

And I, I pretty much have accepted.

Unless I just go completely,
just stop working altogether.

I'm never going to be able to get a
subsidy from, from the government.

Uh, it's, it's a bad position to be in.

And also my biggest mistake,
like I love my kids to death.

It was a mistake having kids
because they are super expensive.

Aaron Francis: out of here.

Get out of here Come on

Kevin Griffin: Um.

No,

Aaron Francis: Listen, if you're
if if you're in Europe and you're

listening to this and you're like
man, that sounds crazy Let me

just tell you yeah, it's crazy.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Aaron Francis: It's crazy.

It sucks.

We know it.

We're aware of it.

Kevin Griffin: and now it's, it's
one of those things it's, Oh, because

it's a small business, um, employer
plan, it's not a business expense.

So I just, it, uh, whereas before
it wasn't a business expense, it

Aaron Francis: Mm hmm,

Kevin Griffin: you know, CPA
does his job, but it wasn't

lowering my, my, uh, business.

income.

So I was still reporting high income

Aaron Francis: Mm hmm.

Kevin Griffin: and getting taxed on it.

Now I'm recording slightly less income
and getting taxed on that and it

Aaron Francis: now it's a before
tax expense instead of after tax.

That's nice Yeah, that's
a lot of money every

Kevin Griffin: And uh, taxes
is, so what are we, 2024?

So my 2023 taxes came back a couple
of weeks ago and uh, actually

got money back because, and I
still had a really good year.

So actually it might've
been a better year.

It all works out.

Aaron, we've been talking
about a lot of stuff.

Anything that we haven't talked about
before we kind of get to final thoughts,

Aaron Francis: Oh goodness.

Um,

I don't think so.

I think, I think one thing I will
caution the listener is that this

all sounds very linear and very
straightforward and like I, I have

never, I've never put a foot out of line.

And like, it's just looking back, like I
can tell that story of it being linear.

The whole time it felt chaotic and
like, Oh, I'm not, I'm a failure.

I don't know what I'm doing.

And just, I'm going to try
as much stuff as I can.

And then some stuff worked
and a lot of stuff didn't.

So don't be, don't, if you're
listening and think, man, he's

just, he's got the golden touch.

Well, I've tried a lot of
stuff that didn't work.

So don't, don't let that put you off.

Kevin Griffin: two more
questions and we'll wrap it up.

So you're kicking off tryhard studios.

You have a partner, Steve, what's the,
what's your end game with tryhard?

Like, where do you see yourself
in the next five, 10 years?

Aaron Francis: Hmm.

Um, so the first step is make more
than we, we made at the old company.

That's the first step.

Um, the end game, I mean.

It's gonna sound, I don't know
what it's gonna sound like.

The end game is to make each of us
more than a million dollars a year.

That's the end game.

That's, that's the goal.

Kevin Griffin: Do you foresee
it just being the two of you?

Do you foresee it growing into an empire?

Aaron Francis: um, Those are not
Those are different questions.

It will be an empire.

Yes.

Will we have a lot of employees?

Doubt it.

I think we will have We might have some
additional You know people to help edit

videos or maybe someone here someone
else here in Dallas because Steve is in

Boise, Idaho we've talked about having
a different Videographer come here and

help like shoot some stuff and then, you
know, Steve can edit it and spice it up.

Um, but I don't imagine us ending up in
a spot where we're employing multiple

like educators or anything like that.

Um, so will it be an empire?

Hopefully, will it be a empire
that just Steve and I control?

Hopefully.

Kevin Griffin: I said two
questions, but I'm going to build

on this, this topic a little bit.

Do you, not even so much you, do you
think Steve, Steve is putting a lot

of faith in you as onscreen talent.

Aaron Francis: He is.

Kevin Griffin: What's, The risk factor
of Aaron being the only onscreen talent.

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Um, there's some existential risk
of like me dying like that exists

and then he would be kind of hosed.

Um, in the current setup, he, he
has very marketable skills, but that

would kind of be the end to try hard.

I think, um, as far as like Steve and
my arrangement, um, It's very, uh, it's

very interesting because I think, uh, I
think Steve is more talented than I am.

Like, I have no problem saying that.

I think it's true.

Maybe it's differently talented,
um, maybe more, more or less is a

false, uh, scale, maybe differently.

Um, but Steve has no
desire to be the front man.

And I love being the front man.

I think it's fun.

I love being on Twitter.

I love being on YouTube and on podcasts.

And Steve is much more
like a background guy.

And so I, you know, early on, I would
talk to Steve a lot and be like, Hey

man, like I'm going to tweet this.

And I know that it says like,
I'm launching this or like

I just put out a video, but.

I like it.

That's just for the, and he's
like, dude, I do not care.

He said, you are like,
you are the front man.

And as long as we both make
money, I am just happy as could

be to be in the background.

And so that has, that has worked
out really, really nicely.

Cause I feel like I have superpowers
cause I've got, I've got Steve like

pushing me forward and not really
wanting to take any of the credit.

And I'm like, This is crazy to me.

And so that's why I'm always very, um,
thoughtful and cautious about telling

everyone who the real talent is.

Cause he, he doesn't do it.

He won't do it.

He is just in the background.

And so, um, I think the threat
for Steve is, is existential.

Like if I die, he's in a bad spot.

But I think other than that, we're,
we're pretty aligned as to like, who

does what and what we want out of it.

Kevin Griffin: I wasn't necessarily
thinking what if Aaron dies, but

what if Aaron is incapable of
doing work for a period of time?

So something happens, God forbid,
and Aaron's not able to record

videos for two or three months.

The, the business.

And these are, this is a symptom
of personality based businesses.

Anyway, it's not a, it's not a.

Aaron problem.

It's anyone out there with
YouTube channel, who's a creator.

If something happens to the front.

Facing person, the, the business can't
move on because there's no face to be.

And I think that's what
I was kind of gauging.

My question is can try hard studios
turn into something that maybe has

not just Aaron, but maybe one or two
other personalities building out.

Okay.

Aaron Francis: So the goal, the goal
there, um, is to operate as if that will

never happen, but we are in talks with
a few other educators to like, um, not,

not hire them, but, um, Get, get them
to help them record and produce a course

that will be under the try hard brand.

And so we're, we're trying to, um,
especially on the course side, there are

just a lot of things that I can't teach.

Like I can't teach rails.

I don't, I don't know Ruby on rails.

I can't teach it.

Um, but there are people who are
very good at teaching Ruby on rails.

And I think what they need.

is a little bit of guarantee of money
that like, if you do this thing,

you'll get paid some distribution,
which we definitely have, um, and then

some help and on the production side.

And so I've talked to two or three,
um, two or three creators and

given them the pitch of like, Hey,
listen, we will fly you to Dallas.

And we will record this course
in, you know, three or four days.

And then Steve will edit everything.

And then we will host it.

We will handle distribution
and everything.

Um, and they've been like,
sure, that sounds awesome.

Um, so there is, there is a
little bit in the works there.

And it's more of like
a, honestly, a studio.

It's more of a studio model than it is.

Like we're going to hire
people to do things full time.

Cause like once, once this person
teaches this SQLite and Rails course,

if they were full time, Employee.

I'd be like, okay, I don't
know what you do now.

Um, so I think that's going to be a nice
way to kind of mitigate some of that risk.

Kevin Griffin: I love that.

And it, it puts you, you said the
studio model, it's like a publisher.

Um, I long, long time ago, I worked
for a publisher who did exactly that.

They flew me out.

I recorded the content.

They did all the editing.

My life was so much easier and I,
and I got a paycheck out of it.

I got something up front.

I got some royalties on the side.

Well, I wish you and Steve all the
luck in the world and it's going

to be fun to watch you guys just
go out there and kick some butt.

Um, Our last thought,
and this is new with you.

No, we're going to try this with all
of our future guests and I'm calling

this segment action over inspiration.

This has been a super inspirational
conversation for me, hopefully

for anyone else listening.

But Aaron, if you were giving some
actionable advice to someone who

wants to be just like you, what
action item can they take tomorrow

to start make that first step?

Aaron Francis: Um, published literally.

You get to decide what
it is, where you put it.

You get to decide the terms on which
you tell it, put out a tweet about what

you're working on, write a blog post,
finally open source, that thing that's

just been sitting on GitHub as a private
repo, like just put anything out there.

And.

I think two things will happen moment.

You'll get momentum and that
momentum will lead to more momentum.

And that's like the
beginning of a flywheel.

And then I think it will serve as
an attractor for luck that will

increase your luck surface area.

If you put it out there and the
right person sees it, it can fully

change your life and you just never
know when that's going to happen.

So just literally publish.

Anything and then keep going.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, there you go.

Aaron, thank you so much
for hanging out with me.

I'm going to put a
reminder on my calendar.

We're going to have you back in
a year and we're going to see

where try harder studios is.

Aaron Francis: I would love that.

Kevin Griffin: I'm looking
forward to that conversation.

Aaron Francis: Yeah, me too.

Thanks for having me.

I've listened.

I've listened to all but the most
recent episode cause I'm behind.

Um, and I love the show.

So thanks.

Thanks for having me.

Kevin Griffin: You can skip that episode.

It's not my best.

Aaron Francis: I did see that it
said something about insurance and I

was like, I don't have the emotional
fortitude to listen to this right now.

So I skipped it.

Um, so

Kevin Griffin: It's just a
business insurance, journal

Aaron Francis: Oh, okay.

Kevin Griffin: professional liability.

Aaron Francis: Yeah.

Something I don't have and probably need.

So I'll go back and listen to it.

Kevin Griffin: so, all right, Aaron, thank
you again so much for hanging out with us.

Everyone else.

We'll see you next week on
multi threading income podcast.

You've been listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

I really hope that this podcast
has been useful for you.

If it has, please take a moment to leave a
review wherever you get your podcast from.

And don't forget the
conversation doesn't stop here.

Join us on our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

I've been your host Kevin Griffin
and we'll see you next week.

Cha ching!