Multithreaded Income Podcast

Kevin Griffin: Welcome back to the show.

Everyone.

I am joined by my friend, Matt Eland.

How are you today, Matt?

Matt Eland: I'm doing very good.

It's, uh,

Kevin Griffin: Did I say
your last name wrong again?

Matt Eland: No, you got it.

You got it.

Uh, Matt, Matty lives.

Kevin Griffin: All right.

Yeah, I, I hate saying people's
names wrong and there are some

names where I will just say it.

I will say it over and over and
over and over again and then.

I'll have it right.

And then the moment comes, I screw it
up and I know I screwed it up because

my brain cannot think straight.

the famous example I use, I, so I have a
friend and I know this is way off topping.

We, we haven't even started yet.

I'm already off topic.

Uh, I have a friend, her name is
Leanna and she introduced herself

as Leanna rhymes with banana and I.

I'm like, cool, I got that.

But my kids watched minions all the time
and it's never, yeah, it's never banana.

It's banana, like banana.

And so I had banana in my head.

So I called her Liana and she's like.

That's not my name.

My, you're seeing my name wrong, but
you said it's Liana, like banana.

And she's like, that's
not how you say banana.

Matt Eland: That's how I say it.

Kevin Griffin: So now every
time I talk to her, I have this

mental, like tick goes banana.

And I don't subscribe

Matt Eland: That's great.

Kevin Griffin: We're back on topic.

I'm actually not going to edit that out.

Like that stays in the podcast
because it's such a good story.

. Matt, I am so happy
you're here with us today.

It's all about having fun.

Matt Eland: having a good time.

Kevin.

Kevin Griffin: late night on what,
Tuesday and it's Thanksgiving week.

So hopefully everyone in the U.

S.

has a good, good holiday.

This is going to come
out after the holiday.

So everyone's either dead or
still surviving or eating turkey

sandwiches for the fifth day in a row.

Um,

Matt Eland: let's hope they're alive.

Kevin Griffin: Let's hope they're alive.

Yeah.

I mean, some, some folks
go real hard on the turkey.

Right, back to Matt.

Stop getting me off topic, man.

That's enough, Matt.

Tell us just real quick, a
little bit about yourself.

Where are you currently working?

Matt Eland: I am an AI
specialist at leading edge.

Uh, it's E.

D.

J.

E.

named it for our founders,
uh, up in Dublin, Ohio.

Um, so I am a Uh, software engineering
and data science consultant.

Uh, I get to work various clients
and, uh, just help invest in

technology and their organizations
and other consultants as well.

And that's a lot of fun.

So I'm helping to develop our AI practices
and, uh, honestly having a blast.

Kevin Griffin: I, I
think it's fascinating.

So I don't Specialize at all in AI.

I like, I know what AI is and I use what
chat GPT, like every other developer

more times than I should in a given day.

What's it kind of look like from, so
you say AI specialists that you're

going into to businesses and helping
with AI architecture and solutions,

without getting into specifics, how
are people kind of generally, you

know, taking advantage of AI and
I'm assuming business systems or

is it more specialized than that?

Matt Eland: Well, a lot of what we
do is applications development, web

application development in particular,
but we do mobile apps as well.

Uh, a lot of people are curious about AI
and what they can do, particularly with

generative AI or gen AI with the new large
language models that, uh, um, about five

years old, but really took off last year.

So a lot of that is just helping people to
understand, hey, here's how you use this.

Here's the limitations of this.

Here's how you improve
the performance of it.

Here's how you use it with your own data.

Here's how you make sure it's not abused.

That kind of thing.

But I like to joke that, you
know, I'm an AI specialist,

but AI is really everything.

It's such a broad field.

So it's sort of like saying
I'm an everything specialist.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah,

Matt Eland: a lot, a lot of what I do with
my learning is I, I learned to generalize.

I learned all these different fields
so I can drill into whatever we

need, uh, for a client that we're
working with or potentially working.

Kevin Griffin: always think
that's the hardest question.

Uh, answer is I, even in our own
applications, we have so much data

and we look at it and go, all right,
is there a, is there a AI solution

here that we're just not seeing?

I, I just don't have the time to dive
in and learn what I need to learn.

What I don't know, I think is the big
thing is that we have a lot of data.

We know how our data works and
we think we know what like AI

solutions would apply there.

But I think it's the bottom of the,
what the bell curve of, of expertise.

Like I, I don't know anything,
but I know I don't know anything

and I need to give that superpower
where I think I know it all

,
Matt Eland: get that bell curve of,
uh, you know, I know, I know nothing.

And then in the middle, you
think, you know, everything.

And that the right, it's like, no, no, no.

We're just gonna keep things super simple.

We know all the ways this can
break, you know, that whole

software engineering journey, it
applies to data science as well.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, that's a fascinating,
but that's not the only thing you do.

Um, we wanted to talk to you today
cause you're currently getting

ready to launch a new book.

Uh, you want to tell us a little bit about
the book you're getting ready to launch.

I

Matt Eland: So I think by the time that
you all listened to this, the book will

have launched because, uh, it, uh, it,
uh, releases this, uh, Thursday, the,

or sorry, Friday, the 24th black Friday.

Uh, of November.

Uh, so this is a refactoring with C sharp.

This is my first technical
book that's been published.

I'm really excited about it.

And, uh, the book really
serves 2 audiences.

Uh, the 1st is, you know, your, your
early intermediate net developers who

are looking to get better at their craft,
looking to see how they can improve.

Uh, and then the other person that
serves is, you know, that kind of that

manager, that senior developer, that
lead engineer who's saddled with a, a

lot of legacy code and technical debt.

And they're trying to figure out how do
I safely untangle myself from this mess?

Uh, so the book aims at serving
both of those, those people, uh,

with varying chapters in a journey.

Um, but it's, uh.

I'm really excited about it.

I'm very proud of it.

I had a lot of help from, uh, folks
in the, in the tech community,

particularly in Ohio with my, uh,
my fellow, uh, technical reviewers.

So I'm very thankful for them.

Kevin Griffin: always think
it's fascinating with the book.

Uh, I feel like, so I've never written
a book, but I've done courses and

stuff, but you have this, I feel like
every author kind of goes through

this moment of imposter syndrome,
like, Oh, do I know enough about a

subject to really write an entire book.

And books are so, so permanent.

If I make a mistake on a course, I
can just go back and fix the course.

But like a book, you kind of have to
know what you're doing at the beginning.

Can we talk a little bit about the,
the origin of the idea for the book?

was that yours?

Were you approached by a publisher?

, how did refactoring in C
sharp, uh, come up as an idea?

Matt Eland: So, uh, this, this spring,
um, packed publishing approached me

and says, hey, hey, Matt, I found this
blog post you wrote last fall on dot

editor config files and visual studio
and recommendations for new developers.

And I know you're doing a lot of AI
stuff, but you know, you're teaching.

net professionally.

Is there any chance that you'd
be willing to write this book?

And my initial reaction was, well,
you've approached me about other

books, but I think this one kind
of overlaps well with my skills.

It feels like this is an area
there wouldn't be a gap in.

It feels like somebody else
would have written about them.

And they had to kind of convince me that
there actually was a sizeable gap in time

for people writing this particular thing.

Uh, for a C sharp audience.

And I, I, I verified that.

Um, it seemed like, uh, almost
to go against your statement

about imposter syndrome earlier.

It seemed like something
I could do pretty easily.

Um, just because a lot of its thing,
you know, things related to the

journey I've gone through my, my
professional career and things that

I've had to struggle through and wisdom.

I could share with other people.

Um, once I got into the, once I get into
the outline, I'm like, oh, it'd be really

neat if we included a chapter on, uh.

Uh, I get hub co pilot chat, uh, and,
uh, uh, Rosalynn analyzers and how

to build one and all, all the, you
know, a few things I didn't know how

to do at the time, uh, and then when
it came to write those things, that's,

that's when the imposter syndrome set.

Kevin Griffin: but it gives you a
good opportunity to learn that stuff.

You're at the top of
that bell curve, right?

You know what you don't know, but
you know, it's a potential solution

that would be good for the book.

I'm fascinated with the
process of the writing book.

And so as a person who's never
written a book, uh, we had a

previous guest, uh, Alvin Ashcraft
talked about writing his book.

And I think, uh, his journey
was somewhat similar to yours.

He, a publisher found them and.

Asked them to come in on a topic.

Um, so let's start with just the outline.

So was the outline just all you just
writing out all your thoughts and ideas?

Did you go out and look
for other material?

Uh, did you ask, did the
publisher have any input on that?

Matt Eland: When you're talking
to a publisher, you're talking

to an acquisitions editor, right?

Um, well, if you get past the front gates,
you're talking to the acquisitions editor

and that person usually has an idea of
what they want to publish in the coming.

You know, period of time for them,
um, this was something that they

had identified that they wanted to
do, but they still needed a formal

proposal so that they could review
it with their internal processes.

That means that you need to write out.

Who's the audience for?

Uh, you know, who are you?

Why should you be the
one to write the book?

Um, what are people searching for?

Where are the competing books out there?

And then, yeah, you write the outline.

So, uh, what are the major chapters?

And then each publisher wants something
a little bit different for the outline.

Yeah.

Um, some publishers just
want a few sentences.

Someone wanted bullet points.

Uh, some want actual, um, like,
numbered headings within that chapter.

Right?

Um, and so you, you kind of work
with that and you send it back to the

publisher and they will typically send
you back some questions that's often

technical questions where they don't
understand something that you, um.

That, you know, a little bit better
than they do, or maybe they're looking

into the competition and saying, well,
we do a little bit better for SEO.

If we can include a chapter on,
um, let's say, solid or design

principles or whatever it is.

Right?

Um, you can have a back
and forth with them.

That's that's really healthy.

I've also had conversations
with publishers who just said,

Hey, this outline looks great.

Let's move on to contract.

And, uh, that, that wound up being a
contract I moved away from, uh, because

it was, it was, it was a little alarming.

So, you know, it's good to
get a little bit of pushback.

They're just trying to make a better book
and that's their job as an acquisition.

Usually they'll have an
idea of what they want.

Kevin Griffin: Publishers
are the acquisitions folks.

Are they normally technical or
just, is it like a recruiter

technical where they know?

A couple of the buzzwords or do they
have a more intimate technical knowledge?

Like you can't just pass them BS
and hope that they sign off on it.

Matt Eland: So I'm not sure I can
definitively answer that question.

I think it's going to depend on
who you're talking to, right?

Um, some publishers I've encountered.

Have been former, you know, technologists
who, who doing technical writing and

are now in publishing some people,
you know, it might be more of that,

you know, recruiter route that you're
talking to somebody maybe outside

the technical field coming in.

Uh, but once you stay in publishing,
you are typically specializing in an

area like you might be the big data, um,
acquisitions editor at your organization,

the dot net guy or whatever it might be.

And so.

Even if you didn't start out being that
way, uh, you're going to get better

at that eventually, but I kind of view
these folks as SEO minded researchers.

Um, and so I threw a number of things that
I knew that they wouldn't have encountered

before, um, for refactoring the C sharp.

Uh, for example, I, I
talk about scientists.

net.

I've never seen that in a book before.

Uh, Roslyn Analyzers, um, Github Copilot
Chat, I actually had to wait before I

sent my outline to the publisher, so I
wasn't breaking my NDA with Microsoft.

Uh, until Microsoft unveiled
that product, right?

Or GitHub did, right?

Um, so, uh, that was,
that was interesting.

So, you know, they will look at that
stuff and they'll, they'll, uh, do some

research and ask you questions about it.

Kevin Griffin: Awesome.

So I kind of want to move
forward kind of quickly.

So assuming you get the outline
approved, you spend a couple of months

writing the book, you go through a
couple of series of tech reviews.

I think we've kind of heard
that story a couple of times.

So let's not dwell on that.

Um, you get paid millions of dollars
and then we just gloss over that, right?

Matt Eland: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That checks in the mail, I'm pretty sure.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah,
eventually he'll be there.

Um, I really am fascinated to talk
to you about your next book and

cause you're taking what seems like
a different approach to that, where,

so the recap of your approach by
a publisher that writes your first

book, but you have a new book and.

I need to stop talking.

Tell us a little bit about the
new book and kind of approach that

you're taking with it instead.

Matt Eland: Oh, uh, Kevin, I'm kind
of this guy who likes to teach.

And what I found when I finished my first
draft, Is I didn't, you know, I allowed

myself to play a little bit of Starfield.

I had been waiting until I finished the
first draft to play some Starfields.

I played an hour of Starfield and
went upstairs and start winding down

for bed and I couldn't help myself.

I started outlining other book.

Um, and, uh,

Kevin Griffin: Play some Starfield.

Matt Eland: yeah, I still
haven't played much of Starfield.

Kevin Griffin: It's a 70 hour game.

Play some

Matt Eland: I, I likely
will over the coming month.

I started outlining this idea.

Like, if I could, if I could
share something more with the

community, I've, I've shared about
my past with dot net development.

I could share about the things that I care
about and passionate about with and dot

net and Azure stacks and things like that.

You know, what would that look like?

It looked like and and so then I
started in approaching a few publishers.

I'm like, well, I really
liked working with packed.

I'm curious what the process looks
like in another place because I'm

always looking to learn from people.

Um, and then, so I started talking
about a bunch of people and seeing

how each publisher did their
processes a little bit differently.

Um.

And when you approach somebody with
an idea, it's a little bit different

than than approaching you because
you now need to sell an acquisitions

editor on selling 1 of their on using
1 of their, their book slots on your

idea, and it's going to garner the
interest in sales that they wanted to.

Um, so it's a little bit more of the.

Education side of things, and
often they'll counter with a.

Oh, that's interesting.

I'm not so sure that's, that's us, you
know, how are you at, you know, X, uh,

would you be interested in, uh, revising
a book on Y, you know, that kind of thing.

Uh, and so they're saying, well,
I'm not sure that's, that's my need.

I have this other need
you clearly want to write.

Would you like to write this?

Um, and sometimes you'll send an eight
page proposals on a book to somebody

and you get back, uh, no, thanks.

And that's it.

Um, that can be frustrating too.

But, uh, um, so it can be a
little bit of back and forth.

Um, you know, it becomes evident often
when you're, you know, not hitting close

to the things that they care about.

And that's okay.

That's just part of the process.

But I actually just got a, uh, an
email this morning when I, when

I woke up saying like, Hey, we
want to move forward with this.

Um, here's a couple more steps we need to
do before we can start talking contract.

But, uh, um, it looks like I will
be writing again in the new year.

And I'm, I'm excited about that.

Kevin Griffin: That's exciting.

How many publishers have
you sent the proposal to?

Matt Eland: I think I've talked
to about four, four publishers.

I think I've really only
talked seriously to.

To about 3, uh, publishers, um, to those
were about kind of related projects.

I gave them like, hey, here's a
couple of things I'm thinking about.

Maybe they gravitated towards 1
or the other, or they pushed me

towards something to compliment.

They were what they
were already working on.

But, you know, was within my bounds.

Um, there was 1 that, uh, I think it
would have been a really interesting

possibility, but they were kind of.

Pushing me towards an audience
that I wasn't ready to write for

just with my level of experience
and knowledge, and I didn't think

we're going to get good results.

So I walked away from that 1.

another 1 said, yes, but the terms
looked a little, uh, not worthwhile.

We'll say, so,

Kevin Griffin: You're passionate
about the idea, but you don't want to,

you don't want to go broke doing it.

Like you need to get something
out of it in the end.

Matt Eland: well, it's, it's.

It's also, you know, it's,
it's good to have the revenue.

It's good to have the recurring revenue.

Um, I get a lot of, uh, monthly
recurring revenue from, uh, actually

from medium, from their partner
program, from old blog posts in line.

So the more things you can publish in
a month, the more of that recurring

revenue you're going to get over
time, even if it's just a trickle.

Um, that's, that's helpful.

Um, but it also generates leads to
like the book I got to do with pact.

Um, refactoring with C sharp.

I got that opportunity because I had been
blogging and they found me through that.

But when you're talking to a
publisher, you know, make sure you're

getting some sort of an advance.

Do your research around the rates and
the percentages that they're giving you.

If it looks like they're finding ways
to try to not pay you for things.

Um, particularly when bundling your,
your, your stuff together or whatever, you

know, talk to some other authors, uh, that
publish group or other publishers, uh, you

know, you're, you're allowed to do these
things to, to kind of defend yourself.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

I think that's some good advice.

Talk to talk to other authors.

Um, I've also heard advice and I
don't know if this is still relevant

today, but my understanding is that.

There are book agents specific
for tech books who would do a

lot of this work on your behalf.

Um, I don't know if you had any
experience with that or you heard

about any or might potentially want
to try to use one in the future.

Yeah.

Matt Eland: No, that's not an area
I've, I've looked into too much.

Um, I think I, I, uh, talked to
someone at, uh, Codemash, uh, a

year or two ago on the book front.

Uh, but that's not something
I, I've gone on down too much.

Um, to be honest, the reason I wrote
refactoring with C sharp was because I

wanted to keep investing in my students
after they graduated because I could I

could teach them the basics of C sharp.

But I knew that, you know, I'd been
teaching the last three years and now

those, those junior devs were getting
ready to be mid level developers and,

uh, you know, this, the book was a
way of continuing to teach them and

other people like them down the road.

wound up, uh, leaving teaching and getting
into consulting not too long after that.

So for me, it's been a way to
continue to teach even after

I get back into the field.

Kevin Griffin: So comparing the
experience of being pitched the first

book and then the second experience
of you pitching the book, which one

gave you the best deal, um, without
naming numbers or anything like that.

Matt Eland: Well, I don't have
numbers on the 2nd one yet.

Kevin Griffin: Okay.

Yeah.

Matt Eland: I can tell you it was a
lot easier to go to the 1st 2nd round,

you know, I had to sell someone on a,
there's no book that exists for this yet.

This is a market that I think that
we should investigate together.

Um, and the publisher's
interested in being 1st, but

they're also not interested in.

You're not having any buyers.

So, uh, you got to work with them
on the risk a little bit there,

Kevin Griffin: to imagine, is it going
to be the type of book that ends up on

a shelf or is it all going to be online?

Um, I think folks looking, I know
looking in, uh, publishing a book's

expensive because people aren't going
to bookstores like they were years ago.

Uh, I don't think people are even
buying books on Amazon at the rate

that they were, say, 15, 20 years ago.

Like, I remember my pride and joy
when I got my first office, um, as

a junior dev was my bookshelf, like
every tech book I could get my hands on

just went prominently on my bookshelf.

So if someone walked

Matt Eland: red and blue Microsoft ones.

Yep.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah, look
at all the books I have.

This is all the things I could potentially
know if I actually read the books.

Um, I ended up reading a quarter
of them, but I had them on my shelf

because they, they looked nice.

Um, it was also when, I mean,
at the time, having a good

reference book in front of you.

Is and it's still like a great tool.

I love having good reference
books in front of me.

, I do tech reviews for, uh,
for different publishers.

Now, I don't do that.

I'm not tech editor.

I do the review afterwards.

I always tell the publisher.

I'm like, you're not sending me an ebook.

You send me an ebook.

I'm probably not going to
read it because I do so much

better with the physical books.

Um,

Matt Eland: I, yeah, I,
I was there last summer.

They sent me a, a nice, uh, copy of
a machine learning book on Azure.

I gave a very high remarks, but
they're like, Hey, is your review done?

I'm like, the book hasn't arrived yet, but

Kevin Griffin: a great book.

Tell me when, when you can
send it and I'll do a review.

Um,

Matt Eland: I think it's important
to say that the cost for publishes

Publishers is decreased, um, versus
what it used to be, because most of

these things are print on demand.

Now, um, when you buy a book
on Amazon, they are printing it

and shipping it from from there.

So it did not exist
prior to you clicking by.

Um, and that's different than what
it was, you know, 20 years ago.

Um, it also makes it easier to get into
the business as a self publisher too.

Uh, so if you want to write something,
um, with maybe a smaller market.

Uh, and, and, uh, go through the process
of figuring out the layout and, uh,

uh, getting it correct and, uh, uh,
and all that stuff, uh, you can put it

out there on Amazon KDP and it will be
print on demand and, uh, Uh, you'll get

a lot larger share of the royalties,
uh, but you're doing a lot more of the

work yourself and, uh, you know, might
not be as discoverable as if you went

Kevin Griffin: was that a plan B
for your book idea if a publisher

wasn't willing to pick it up?

Matt Eland: through me.

Kevin, it actually still is a
plan B, um, because they haven't

sent me the contract yet.

Uh, and so, uh, I'm like, I know I have
this book I want, uh, I want to write.

I know I have this
knowledge I want to share.

I care too much about it to not do it.

So let's not let a publisher,
you know, hold a metaphorical

weapon to my head here.

Um, let's scale up and do that by
writing a small self published book.

And so I've been writing a small
book on, um, computer vision on

Azure featuring the new V4 APIs.

They just moved out of preview.

I don't think that a whole lot of people
are going to be terribly interested in

this book, but it's been good for me
to get into here's how I write a book.

Here's how I do markdown.

Here's how I work with lean
pub, by the way, lean pub.

If you're doing self publish, uh, just
You're committing, uh, files, you push

it up to your GitHub repository and
it auto generates a, um, a preview for

you in PDF and it's, it's, it's great.

Um, and then you can push that sucker
out to, to Amazon and, and, and

sell it to folks as an ebook and a
print book, print on demand book.

And it's great.

Um, but I've been working
on those skills as well.

And if things fall through the
publisher I'm talking with, um, you

know, I might find myself going with
a larger book, uh, uh, that way.

But I think you could do get a lot
from having outside eyes on something

and having, you know, outside
project management, even if you don't

necessarily need that, you know, being
able to send an email saying, Hey,

here's what I got done this week.

I'm

Kevin Griffin: Accountability helps a ton.

It's like you're in high school or I'm
sorry, not high school, but like college,

like, Oh, I have a paper due tomorrow.

I have to write 500 words on computer
vision and I've only written two.

So now you have to stay up all night
and you have to write your 500 words

Matt Eland: let me guess the
first, the first term was computer.

The second word was vision.

Kevin Griffin: Vision.

Yeah.

Well, and now like chat GPT, we'll
just fill in the rest for you.

Matt Eland: Actually as an educator,
that's what, what made me start looking at

transformers before chat GPT was a thing
was, you know, we started seeing more and

more people cheat at college level, uh, on
these things using, you know, GPT three.

And it's like, okay, this
is this is going somewhere.

Um, but it's it's funny.

You mentioned the college thing because
I'm actually am a college student.

I'm getting my master's next summer.

So,

Kevin Griffin: Well, congratulations.

That's a ton of work.

Uh, is it an AI or is it

Matt Eland: data data analytics.

Kevin Griffin: That's a, a
good, degree to have nowadays.

Um, I would tell everyone I got
a computer science degree and

I should've got my degree in business
and, uh, systems analysis and design.

Um, That would have been a far
better information systems.

That would have been a
better degree for me to get.

Matt Eland: Yeah, I got I got
computer information systems.

Yeah, it's not as good when you're
trying to go back for masters.

I can tell you that.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, really?

Matt Eland: Yeah, because I'm like,
yeah, I've been I've been, um, Doing

this stuff for, you know, 10, 15 years.

Um, I'm under consideration
for Microsoft MVP.

I now have that, but you know, when
I was applying, you know, I, I, um,

they're like, yeah, no, we want to
make sure that you pass this one

class back in college, you know, 15
years ago and yeah, come on, man,

Kevin Griffin: I'm fascinated
with the self publishing.

I have self published the book on
Amazon with KDP and I, I feel like

it's this secret tool that no one talks
about that anyone can publish now on

Amazon and the tools are really good.

And you just, like you said, you just
upload a PDF and they'll even send you a

sample of your book with watermarks and
all that good stuff in two or three days,

you just say, I want a sample of my book.

And next day you, uh, you get your book
and you're like, Oh, this is great.

So you can do your own tech editing
and, and send the revisions.

Um, I, I almost feel like more
people should do that just

as have something on Amazon.

Like the crazy thing about Amazon is.

People would buy any, almost any
random thing they find on Amazon.

We were selling copies of the
book and we didn't even know where

the customers were coming from.

We were just selling the book.

And you get this, uh, we
call it stranger money.

So you're just getting stranger
money from people you don't

know who are buying your thing.

Um, but I, I love the tip about LeanPub
because I always forget about LeanPub

and it's definitely a great resource.

Matt Eland: Yeah, they're,
they're fantastic and they're

getting better all the time.

They're doing a lot, a lot of interesting
things with AI services as well right now.

So.

You know, if you wanted to, you
could use them to translate your

book, uh, using AI or, uh, AI, edit
your book or whatever it might be.

Right.

Kevin Griffin: So let's
move on from the book.

So we are going to keep our fingers
crossed that your publisher comes

through and you get the deal.

Cause I guess if we kind of weigh the,
the pros and cons of the publisher

versus self publishing, um, I would
say a big pro for the publisher

is they do some marketing for you.

Like just being in their marketplace
helps a ton, uh, versus you having

to go out and say, hi, I'm at, I
wrote a book, here's a link and.

The worst part about having a good number
of Twitter followers or X followers,

whatever you call them, is asking those
followers to go buy something you put out

because all of a sudden it doesn't matter
how many thousands of followers you have.

Like one person might buy.

You go, man, what's the point of having
3000 Twitter followers if no one's going

to buy my stuff.\ Matt, let's move.

On, I want to talk a little bit about
the blogging stuff cause you, you just

kind of said it as a passing comment
that you're making money from medium.

And I actually want to talk
about that a little bit more.

So let's just talk about
how got into blogging.

Obviously you're, you love teaching.

I love teaching too.

So we're, we're talking the same language.

Um, I haven't done too much on medium,
so I want to talk about medium and how

you're making money off medium because I
think you're the first person I've met who

says they've been making money off medium.

Matt Eland: So I started blogging,
um, because I was freaking out over

imposter syndrome, believe it or not.

Um, I had submitted my first conference.

Abstract, uh, uh, and I was like,
oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Why would they, why would they select me?

You know, there's nothing out
there that says I know anything

at all about technical debt.

And so, oh crap.

Uh, well, I'm going to do is, is during
the CFP and during the, during the

review process for my session, uh, I'm
just going to write a blog post every

day or every other day or something
like that on, you know, an aspect of.

Testing or technical debt or whatever.

Uh, and I took that nervous energy
from, uh, from my imposter syndrome

and I fueled it into all these little
blog posts for really about six weeks.

Uh, I was doing a post every day or
every other day, something like it was.

Pretty high output for
that period of time.

And I, I needed to lay down after that,
but I came out of that and like, Oh, you

know what I just did six weeks of writing.

Um, I liked it.

Um, I started writing on medium
and then a friend in the developer

community said, Matt, you ought
to check out this dev two site.

That's dev.

to, dev together.

Um, and so my stuff on
Medium was going nowhere.

Nobody was caring about it.

And then I started posting it on DevTube.

And I started getting comments
from all sorts of folks who

I know in the community.

I really met a lot of them
through my, my articles.

And that was kind of fun.

Um, and then I started writing.

On my own blog and then cross
posting to dev two and to medium.

And I think my medium stuff started to
take off, um, after a while, you know,

they had these internal people that
were just kind of looking at stuff and

say, Hey, this is high quality enough.

Let's promote it more to
our official channels.

And once that happens, then a
lot of people start finding it.

And then a lot of people
start reading your stuff.

And once enough of that happens,
you get this kind of virtuous cycle.

Where, hey, you're now getting enough
viewership every month that we are

inviting you into the partner program.

Um, and so you actually get a little
bit of money each month from that.

I think they changed it over the
summer where you have to be a member

of Medium yourself to get paid.

Um, and they, they changed
the formula a little bit.

So I think I'm making like 20 bucks
less a month than I, uh, than I used to.

Uh, but that's okay.

Most of my energy right now is going
into larger projects like books.

But there will come a time again
where I'm doing a lot more on my...

My individual blogs have a
blog for data science, a blog

for just software engineering.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

So you said you just wrote basically
daily or every other day for six weeks.

You essentially wrote a book cause

Matt Eland: I did.

Yeah,

Kevin Griffin: enough writing.

Um, so, uh, so you say you make a little
bit of money from medium and I, I never

tried to ask numbers, but are we talking
like happy meal or flame and yawn?

Matt Eland: uh, we're,
we're, we're talking.

So it was, it was 50 month.

Um, and, and, and now it's
down to about 30 months.

That's okay.

You know, I'm, I'm happy with that.

Kevin Griffin: But again,
it's stranger money.

It's money you weren't expecting
that just magically shows up.

Matt Eland: and, and it's not just that
because every so often, you know, you

roll a 20 on your die and some people
say, hey, man, I found this article.

Would you be willing to
do a guest post for us?

Would you be willing to
have me on your blog?

And that's usually a scam.

But, you know, sometimes it's, it's,
it's, it's an organization like, hey,

Uh, we write tools related to this
thing that you're blogging about.

Would you write a post for us,
uh, in exchange for money and

or perpetual software licenses?

Um, and often it's, it's something
that I might've wanted to use anyway.

So that's,

Kevin Griffin: I have a

Matt Eland: nice.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, this, this stuff tends
to pay off in terms of, um, Like little

financial income, uh, but it also can pay
off in terms of, you know, these, these

one off opportunities with, you know,
established organizations, maybe recurring

opportunities with those organizations.

And then that stuff gets you to have a
reputation in this area, and that can open

up, you know, promotions, it can open up
jobs, it can open up all sorts of stuff.

It's not just the, the financial income,
it's the possibility and the safety

net that all this stuff offers as well.

Kevin Griffin: it's, uh, It's insurance.

Matt Eland: Mm-Hmm.

Kevin Griffin: It's insurance against a
future where, um, you know, if you need,

if you ever need to find something, you
go out and test the network, like, Hey,

I'm looking for an opportunity, um, or
I'm looking for my next opportunity.

And you, if you have enough stuff out
there, enough people know who you are

and they know what you're capable of.

Cause you've been just
publishing it all over the place.

It's very easy.

Just.

It's not as easy as being the, uh,
ex CEO of open AI, but like where

you're hired by Microsoft for your
full benefits within 24 hours.

Matt Eland: Well, who, who know, who
knows if that actually happened by the

time that this, that this comes out

Kevin Griffin: we'll see.

Yeah, it's, it's a different
story every day, isn't

Matt Eland: It, it is.

Kevin Griffin: but it's nice
having your name out there

and people know who you are.

And I think you're, you're job seeking.

Your opportunity sinking your, um, uh,
what's the term, your surface level, your

luck surface level is broader when you're
actively putting yourself out there.

Matt Eland: And, and I can, I can
attest to that this year as well.

You know, I, I came to a point this
year where I said, I need a new home.

I need a new, uh, home
for what, what I'm doing.

I, I am not okay with me staying
on, uh, with this organization.

Um, and so I reached out to
some, some folks I was close to.

I'm like, Hey, I, I'm
thinking about consulting.

Um, what do you think
about the place you're at?

What do you think about this place?

Would you be willing to introduce me?

And, uh, you know, uh, I had, you know,
actually some places say, hey, we don't

even want to technical interview you.

If we have a spot for you, you're hired.

Um, and that that that
blew my mind, right?

Uh, because my body of work
was my technical interview.

Kevin Griffin: yeah.

Amazing.

Matt Eland: that was pretty cool.

Yeah.

Um.

The act of creating something, the
act of researching something to create

something will make you better at the
stuff that you're already doing too.

And I think that there's a lot of benefits
to that in terms of job retention, in

terms of promotion, in terms of salary.

Um, there's, there's a lot of subtle
stuff and there's, you know, the

more overt stuff that this, that
these habits can can help you with.

Kevin Griffin: man.

Is there anything you started
working on that you just had

to ever pull the plug on?

It just wasn't working out
the way you wanted it to.

Matt Eland: So I've hit pause on things
before and it's usually stuff that I

don't have an external commitment to.

Right now, I'm really not doing a
whole lot of things on my blogs.

I'm really not doing much
with my YouTube channel.

Um, and depending on what my conversation
with this publisher goes, um, you know,

I might be, you know, uh, taking some
of the logs out of the fire on the

self published book on Computer Vision.

I'm still going to be doing a lot
with computer vision because I have

a commitment with, uh, with LinkedIn
learning on that, which I'm very excited

about, but, uh, you know, you tend to put
that energy where it's being rewarded.

Um, and I think that can be an advantage
of having multiple channels as well.

Not everything is going to be operating at
full steam all the time, and that's okay.

Kevin Griffin: So I think you
kind of dropped a lead there.

You're working on a
linkedin course as well.

Matt Eland: Yeah, I am, uh.

Working on a course with LinkedIn
Learning, uh, for part of their AI

Engineer certification on Microsoft
Azure AI Engineer AI 102, um, I'm

going to be doing the computer
vision portion of that course, um,

coming out maybe Q2 in the new year.

So I'm excited about that stuff.

Kevin Griffin: Well, is that all?

Is there anything else you're currently
working on or about to start work on?

Matt Eland: I've been doing a
lot of hobby work recently on

semantic kernel and building AIs.

I'll be giving a talk on that
at Global AI Conference in early

December, and then a workshop at Code
Mashup in Sandusky in early January.

Uh, tickets are still available for that.

And I think, uh, actually
you'll be able to catch both,

uh, Kevin and I at Codemash.

So I'll be

Kevin Griffin: Well, as long as they don't
schedule us next to each other, because

if they schedule us next to each other,
there's going to be no one in my talk.

So let's let's not hope for that.

Um, but yeah, we'll both be a code mash.

So

Matt Eland: Yeah.

And I, and I've seen you pack
a room before at Codemash.

Kevin Griffin: uh, you know, luck surface
level, it's, it's every now and then.

Um, so Matt, if someone's out
there and they're, they're

thinking about self publishing
their own book, uh, they want to.

No one go in books in general.

Um, do you have any good advice
for them getting started?

Matt Eland: Well, I think your
first step is probably going to be

to take a look, a look at LeanPub.

They have some really good
resources on getting started.

Um, it's, it, they have various tiers
available, uh, for, you know, what

your financial commitment might be.

You pretty much need pro if you're
going to be taking advantage of like

the CICD to check in, uh, uh, markdown
and generate a PDF, uh, but that's a

very affordable monthly rate as well.

If you're curious about this stuff, if
you're just wanting advice, mentorship,

whatever, um, you know, feel free
to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Just make sure you send a message as
you're sending connection request.

Um, or, you know, you can find
me on, uh, Twitter or whatever

we're calling it nowadays.

Um, or you can find
me@maddielynn.dev, E-L-A-N-D.

Kevin Griffin: And, uh, maybe I can
convince Matt to join the multi thread

income discord, which would also
be a great place to discuss this.

Um, sorry, I got to slip
in my own promotion there.

Matt Eland: Yeah, that's fine.

Kevin Griffin: but excellent.

I think, uh, I need to actually
go take a look at lean pub.

I remember they were publishing a
bunch of stuff when the AI ramp was

starting I was going to take a look
at it and never, never came back.

So I think that's a great resource.

Matt Eland: I actually just bought a
lifetime license to them, uh, last month.

Kevin Griffin: She had awaited and
there's probably a black Friday.

Exactly.

Matt Eland: you mean release date
for refactoring with C sharp?

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Matt Eland: It work was nice
enough to give me that day off.

It was nice.

Kevin Griffin: so you get
to go celebrate even better.

Matt Eland: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: Matt, it's been
a pleasure chatting with you.

Is there.

I mean, we've talked about
everything you're running.

Is there anything else to promote
that we haven't covered already?

Matt Eland: If you, your organization or
a need of consulting services, you know,

talk to leading edge, we're really smart
geeks and, uh, we like to help people out.

And, uh, I'd be happy to connect you.

Kevin Griffin: Absolutely.

All right, Matt.

Thank you so much for hanging
out with this day and thank you

everyone listening and tuning in.

We'll see you all next week on
the multi threaded income podcast.