Multithreaded Income Podcast

Kevin Griffin: It's time for the
multi threaded income podcast.

We're like insurance for a
turbulent tech landscape.

I'm your host, Kevin Griffin.

Join me as I chat with people all around
the industry who are using their skills

to build multiple threads of income.

Let us support you in your career
by joining our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

Now let's get started.

Welcome back to the show.

Everyone.

I am joined by not just a good
friend, not just, uh, a beautiful man.

I joined by the legend, uh, Taylor Destin.

Taylor, how are you doing today, bud?

Taylor Desseyn: What's, what's up, buddy?

It's, uh, I am, I'm happy to be here.

Um, you know, I think any
excuse to hang out with you is,

uh, is, is a win at my book.

Kevin Griffin: Absolutely.

Uh, we don't need to spend the next
20 minutes like we always do just

talking about how we've met each
other because I don't think that's

appropriate for the conversation.

But I'm going to make sure that we
link to previous episodes of your show

that you do on various social networks.

Well, where we talk about this.

So, We're going to send you over to
your show before we go any more into

that, Taylor, tell us a little bit about
yourself, uh, where you're coming from

because you're not our typical guests
on the multi threaded income podcast.

Taylor Desseyn: I'm pretty sure like
you, SyntaxFM, WhiskeyWeb and whatnot

have all kind of started the same thing.

Well, we have Taylor, but
he's kind of different.

So please explain yourself.

Um, so basically, um, yeah.

Taylor Dessin, I have been a recruiter
and before you log off, don't log off yet.

Cause I, cause I, I know when,
when, when devs hear the R word,

man, it's, it's this like recoil.

So don't recoil come back.

Um, basically I've been
recruiting for 12 years.

Um, I got my first taste of
community and I didn't know it was

community at the time in Raleigh.

So I worked in a Raleigh office,
um, uh, at, when I was at my last

company in 2013 and I met Rob
Zelt, Jim Duffy, all those guys.

At the dot net user group in Raleigh
and got really invested in them and

really invest in that community.

I was like, man, this is great.

And then got invited to speak at
Raleigh code camp by those guys.

I was like, well, I
don't know how to code.

They're like, we don't want you to code.

We just want to talk about the job search.

And I got hooked, right?

I mean, the talk went off great.

And I was like, this is what I want to do.

I started pouring into engineering,
engineering communities

and Recruiting engineers.

And nine years later, you know, I've,
I've, I've led recruiting teams and

trained recruiting teams, started
recruiting teams from scratch.

And now, um, I'm super blessed to be
at, uh, uh, a new company, um, gun.

io.

Uh, we are a talent marketplace,
uh, for engineers across the globe.

Um, and, uh, we're doing some
really, really cool stuff

that I'm super pumped about.

Um, but really what my role is and really
what I've been focused on for the last,

I'd say probably three years is like.

Community first, um, helping engineers,
uh, uh, you know, from junior, all the way

to senior, um, level up their careers and
then helping hiring managers figure out

how to hire and scale their teams better.

Cause that's also broken.

So that's really my focus.

And then I think, I guess my third
passion is content creation, which

obviously we're going to talk about today.

Kevin Griffin: One of the
fascinating things about what you

just said is I'm, or was highly
active in the Raleigh community.

And it's very likely that you
and I crossed paths multiple

Taylor Desseyn: wild.

And, and I bet, I bet we, I bet
you were in that Microsoft building

when I was in the Microsoft, but
there was like 90 people in there.

So like

Kevin Griffin: yeah.

It was a big group.

And unless you were, I guess, one of the
outsiders or outliers is the word I want

and coming up and just talking to me.

Um, and

Taylor Desseyn: don't do that.

I just like social media because I can
talk to people without talking to people.

Kevin Griffin: so I wish my memory
was better to just think back to

those old group meetings and go.

Oh, I do

Taylor Desseyn: but see, I didn't even
look like the way I look like right now.

Right.

I'm, for those of you, if you haven't
seen me, like I have bleach blonde hair.

Now I have an earring, like
I have a full beard now.

Like that's, I did not have,
you know, creepy glasses on.

Right.

My, my wife calls them,
uh, the creepy glasses.

Um, but, uh, you know, I have those
on, like, I, I, I think even if you

did remember me, you wouldn't remember
me like, like connecting the dots.

Cause that looks so different now.

Kevin Griffin: I wish I had one of
those photographic memories where I go.

You were in the third
row on the right side

Taylor Desseyn: dude, it's so bad.

I look so different now.

I show TSA.

I've done a lot of traveling
recently with conferences and then

traveling home for the holidays.

Um, the TSA agents are
starting to question me now.

Like that's how different I look.

Kevin Griffin: You don't want that.

Secondary search is not fun.

Taylor Desseyn: no, no, no, no, no.

Kevin Griffin: Well, Taylor, the
conversation we wanted to have

today, and you brought it up, and
I thought it was a great topic,

was social proofing your career.

So we're going to play some hypotheticals.

I'm going to play the role as the
person that nobody knows about.

I have a 9 5 job.

I'm a software developer.

I come in and I do some software
development stuff, but I'm not afraid

of losing my job, but I also don't
think that the job I'm in is the job I'm

going to have for the rest of my life.

I'm probably going to be interested in
switching careers in the next year or so,

or maybe going out on my own and start.

Independent consulting or freelancing.

Uh, but nobody really knows who
I am except my, my coworkers.

Taylor, how do you make me famous?

Taylor Desseyn: Well, first off,
if that's your goal, it's going,

it's, it's going to take a bit.

Uh,

Kevin Griffin: more famous,
more famous than I already am

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah, more fans already.

I am.

Kevin Griffin: So at least
one person knows who I am.

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah.

So, so there, there's this thing and,
and I really, truly, so I watch a lot of

content creators, not in a tech space.

I actually pull actually all
of who I watch is, uh, not,

uh, tech content creators.

It's, it's a lot of, um, content
creators, different areas.

I follow one guy who's out in LA.

He's like a gamer, but he does a
lot of like day in the life stuff.

And Uh, one of my guys, I
want to give a shout out.

Carl Nard.

I haven't met him, but I'm planning
on flying out there to hang out

with him because he's so cool.

He's in the kind of the running community.

And for me, I, I, I, I, all of these
guys and gals that I follow, um,

they all have the kind of the same
thing and kind of the same trend.

And it's in is when covid hit,
they dove into content creation

because we're all at home.

And I think that's when content
creation really exploded.

And yeah.

I, you know, I know Tech Twitter
has been on on it for a long time

and tech, you know, DevRel has has
definitely, I think, in my opinion,

have done it right for a long time.

Um, I think what I think DevRel that
entire structure is the best way to do

marketing more than traditional marketing.

Um, and so for me, um, I am a big
proponent of social proofing your career.

Um, now I want to preface this by saying
my brother has no social media presence.

He's a product owner.

Um, at a really big tech company
that you probably have heard of.

Um, and he has no problems finding jobs.

Um, he has been able to, he actually
uses interviewing for networking,

which is what I preach a lot
about, but he does a great job.

So everything I say to say you
don't have to do, but everybody

who does it has come to me and said
they wish they've started sooner.

And so for me, I think, you know,
if you're an individual who has not

used Twitter, has not used LinkedIn,
um, there's a lot to break down.

Um, but you know, we'll, I'll
definitely hit the basics first.

Um, for me.

I think, I think you need to be
able to draw attention to yourself

and be known for something.

Um, and, and even if you're a junior
career, a lot of people, you know, tell

me like, well, Taylor, I'm too junior.

How can I be known for something?

You can literally just talk
about how you're learning react.

And if you post about enough,
you're going to be the react guy

or gal, whether you like it or not.

If that's mainly what you post
and you're trying to learn from

people, even if you're junior,
you're still the react person.

And so What that does is it
allows you to find your tribe.

It allows you to be known.

It allows other people, like I said,
to find you, AKA your tribe, and it

allows opportunities to open up for you.

And so, you know, if you're sitting there
with no social media presence, the, the

one place I would start is LinkedIn.

I think LinkedIn is, is I listened
to a lot of people think LinkedIn is

this platform that I used in college
that I, I create a profile and I

don't use it anymore, which I get.

But in my opinion, LinkedIn
is like the, the B2B.

Like the, the professionals
tick tock, if that makes sense.

So, you know, uh, and, and this kind
of dives into content strategy, but you

know, everything on LinkedIn is like,
not what you see on Twitter for the most

part, or, or tick tock LinkedIn is for
the most part for your professional.

Yes.

Obviously, if you listen to this,
you're like, well, I see crazy posts

about politics and blah, blah, blah.

Yes.

Listen, it's not perfect.

Don't get me wrong, but at the end
of the day, most of the content

on LinkedIn is business related.

And so for me, also the way it works
too, is if you have never posted before

LinkedIn actually really boosts you.

If you have not posted a lot, it's
guys like me who post four or five

times a day that LinkedIn is, is
like, all right, you got to come up

with something more engaging because
they've throttled my stuff recently.

And I've had to be creative
on what I post now.

And so all that being said.

We're, I'm going to stop running
my mouth here for a second.

So you ask another clarifying question.

If I were you, I would start posting
once a day for 30 minutes a day.

Now I'll have a lot of people go,
Taylor, you're telling me it's

going to take 30 minutes to post.

No, it's not.

The thing is though, is that nobody
gives himself enough space to

actually give, give their brains
a break to come up with a post.

So that's why I say scheduled
30 minutes every day, 8 a.

m.

830 first thing.

And write about something you're
experiencing, whether it's

what you learned is something
you're having a problem with.

Um, and I'll finish this, this little,
little bit out by telling a quick story.

There's a junior developer
who I knew back during COVID.

Um, I'll never forget his name.

His name's Austin Cumberlander.

And Austin graduated from
Nashville Software School.

And he was a junior developer.

And he was really having a hard
time finding a job and he posted

about a interview that he bombed.

He was very transparent.

I did not study, was not prepared.

Here are the questions that got me wrong.

I'm going to do better next time.

That post got so many
likes and so many comments.

So we can dive into the algorithm if
you want, but it got so many likes

and comments that another hiring
manager saw it, loved Austin's, uh,

vulnerability and transparency, slid
into his DMS, how to call and hired him.

Kevin Griffin: I Think that's a
very hard thing for people to do

is be vulnerable in a professional
setting because I think of that.

And one of my immediate responses
is, Oh, you're, you're putting out

there that you were wrong and you
didn't know what you were doing.

It was good that someone saw
the good in that and that the.

It's the real strength that you
want from an employee, right?

Or from anyone that you hire is
that I want the person who can admit

they're wrong and understand that
they're wrong, but then take the

steps to correct the issue to find
out what the correct answer is.

Uh, the worst people I've ever had
working with me or for me have been

the ones who know it all and then
take forever to eventually get to

the point where they say, I'm stuck.

I don't know what I'm doing.

Um,

Taylor Desseyn: Well, and
I'll tell you this, too.

I want to caution you.

Don't be a sob story constantly online.

Like no one likes that, right?

So someone's going to hear that and be
like, all right, well, my strategy on

LinkedIn is just going to be bitching.

I don't know if I can curse
on this episode, but, uh,

Kevin Griffin: Now you're

Taylor Desseyn: I'll just, I'll just bitch
the whole time and hopefully that works.

No, it's not right.

People don't like a heavy wet blanket.

Right?

Like, but I do think there is a
time and place to be vulnerable.

Like, Hey, I made a mistake.

Here's how I'm going to fix it.

But you don't want your entire
timeline filled of mistakes.

Um, because then also consider.

So it's definitely time.

It's definitely a balancing act.

I get it.

It's very difficult from
a balancing perspective.

But I think if you can be real,
transparent and vulnerable,

I think the world wants that.

I think there is a such a desire.

And again, this is my social
media kind of background.

There's such a desire to be real.

, I think people are tired
of people's highlights.

And I think that's why I think
Twitter is really attractive because

it's kind of like top of mind.

People just kind of spout stuff off.

But I think the more real
you can be, the better

Kevin Griffin: Is there a particular
length of a, a post that I'm aiming

for, and I know that I see some posts
on LinkedIn where someone has a, a lead

or a little click bait because they know
the show more is going to be there for

Taylor Desseyn: So, okay, so, so we're
getting really granular and I love it.

I love it.

Kevin Griffin: Let's go.

Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn: I've actually
never had anybody kind of dive

into this with me on a podcast.

So I love this.

Um, yeah, so there's
a lot of nuances here.

First off.

I think a lot of people confuse LinkedIn
because it's like, well, it's not Twitter.

So I'm going to write
like four paragraphs.

Like people, people don't read anymore.

They just don't like, and so, you
know, if, if you're really, really

big on long form content, I would,
I would do long for when I say long

form, I mean, multiple paragraphs,
I would, I would leverage medium sub

stack, have your own email newsletter.

Again, want to give a shout out to my, my
guy, Carl Nard, uh, his, his, his actual

full name is Carl username is called,
but, but like he has a sub stack where

he just does really long form writing.

Right.

And I never read it, but I like it.

I like what I read.

Um, the little bit I read.

And so for me, I think what you said
about the show more, I think, um, we

live in a world of world of hooks, right?

Tick tock, right?

YouTube.

The first three seconds is vital, right?

Like I, I need to hook you
in the first three seconds.

It's proven that if you do not hook me in
the first three seconds, I'm scrolling on.

And so it's the same thing with LinkedIn.

Your first sentence should be
very, very, uh, Um, catchy.

Now, of course, if, if Kevin's listening
to this or Sue and or Sally or whoever,

and they've never done social media,
you're probably listening to this.

You're like, good God,
this is way too much.

I'm not doing this.

Here's the deal.

Just start posting.

This is like 301 401 stuff, but
it's, but I will tell you this

LinkedIn to shorter, the better.

Some of my best performing posts are
like two to three sentences and it's like

super random and I kind of spout them off.

Um, but again, usually the
two to three sentences are

more vulnerable and more real.

It's usually the paragraphs
that are more polished.

And again, people, People have this
desire to, to resonate with other people.

And if you're out there like doing
these long form texts or long

form paragraphs, people's eyes
are just going to glaze over,

Kevin Griffin: It's all about the timing.

So you have to hit your points and
get the eyes and don't spend too much

time on things that just don't matter.

You really have to be a good storyteller
to write a lot of these posts.

Taylor Desseyn: have to, you have to.

And, and again, if you're
listening to this, you're like,

that was so much information.

I understand.

Keep it simple.

Start posting once a day.

Don't worry about the hook.

Just start documenting what
I mean, documenting, right?

And I'm gonna do this exercise.

Kevin, I'm gonna do it on you.

Kevin, what is one thing
that you've worked on today?

Like a tech wise that you're either
it's a problem or you're having problems

with or you know, or a success story.

Just give me something.

Kevin Griffin: We're implementing a
new service bus, uh, back ends for

one of our systems and no one on
my team knew what they were doing.

So we all jumped on a call
together to figure it out.

Taylor Desseyn: I love that.

So that, so that, that
would be a post, right?

Currently on a team right now,
we're trying to implement a service

bus using blah, blah, blah, blah.

Um, we're having major issues.

Has anybody experienced this?

And so that's another thing, right?

Again, we're getting very tactical here.

You need to engage your audience, right?

So the way the algorithm works on
LinkedIn is if I comment on Kevin's post.

That's in some way, shape or form.

All 20, 000 of my followers are going
to see it in some way, shape or form.

Maybe not all of them, but a
lot of them are going to see it.

It's the same thing if you like
and comment on posts, right?

It just that's the whole algorithm.

LinkedIn really incentivizes
liking and commenting.

And I didn't.

I did.

This is actually one
of my conference talks.

I just do an hour of
breaking down linked in.

Also, another thing too.

If I comment on Kevin's post about
implementing a service bus and if

you're scrolling through linked
in, You're actually going to see my

name twice and only Kevin's post.

So if we're talking about just pure
visibility and pure brand awareness,

LinkedIn actually incentivizes you
to comment more than to actually

post, because you will see, uh,
somebody will see your name twice.

The way it works is like you'll
see at the top left when you scroll

and then you'll see the comment
and then you only see Kevin's post.

So you'll see my name
twice and Kevin once.

, Kevin Griffin: I've also heard it from,
uh, an aspect of not only should you

be writing content, but you should also
be adamantly posting and commenting

on other people's content and not
just saying good posts, enjoy it.

You should write a, a
contribution to the posts.

So paragraph or two outlining
your thoughts saying.

I agree.

I disagree.

And through the LinkedIn algorithm
that will put you much higher

whenever you do a post in the future.

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah.

I mean, I, I, I think, uh, I, I
believe that, you know, I always

tell people there's three ways to
use social media to find a job.

There's, uh, there's posting yourself.

There's commenting and liking
on other people's posts.

And then there's just
the DM feature, right?

Cause a lot of people are
like, well, Taylor, I don't.

I have a job.

I don't want my employer
to know that I'm looking.

I get that.

I get that for sure.

You posting about your day is not
going to signal anything at all.

You posting what you're learning
is not going to signal anything.

You posting, Hey, I want a job.

That's pretty obvious.

So don't do that.

Um, but if you just don't want to post
it all, you can literally comment and

like on other people's posts, spend
15 a day, comment and like, um, engage

and then leverage the DM feature.

Incredibly, incredibly,
uh, effective as well.

You can just, you can literally do none
of that and literally just DM people

and still be incredibly effective.

But the more of the three you
use, the more successful you're

going to be at networking.

And, and in my opinion, this
is what networking is, uh,

in 2023, this is networking.

Networking is podcasting slacks,
discord, live streams, LinkedIn,

liking and commenting, engaging.

And then, you know, if we want
to get technical bottom of the

funnels, conferences and meetups.

Kevin Griffin: What about other
aspects of LinkedIn like, um, skills

and recommendations and all the stuff
that's LinkedIn's had for 15, 20 years?

Do we care about any of that stuff?

Or are we just looking at more of
the content and the engagement?

Taylor Desseyn: No, we definitely care.

There's so there's kind of three
major Things on your profile that

you should have the first thing
is the banner photo cover thingy.

That's not the professional name
That's just what I came up with the

cover banner photo thingy to me.

I think it's fascinating that
LinkedIn basically a professional

platform has A place at the very
top of your profile to be creative.

And, and I think they did this on purpose.

And in my opinion, this is the first thing
people see when they go to your profile.

So this needs to have, this needs
to be fancy to a certain extent.

I would use canvas C a N
B a, I think it's a great

Kevin Griffin: Use it all the time.

Taylor Desseyn: Designed for
dummies is what I call it.

And so.

Basically, I would use Canva.

They actually have a LinkedIn banner.

And for me in that banner, I would put
something about yourself that endears

yourself to somebody that may look at it.

For example, if you're a chef turned
software engineer, I'd put that right.

Chef turned software engineer at the
top, maybe put your phone number, your

email, something, something in the banner.

Um, I, I did a one on one
counseling session with this guy.

He was a junior developer and
he was the backstreet boys.

Audio engineer when they, when
they, uh, did some like shows

recently or something like that.

Um, and I was like, well, you have
to put that at the top of your

LinkedIn profiles at every millennial.

That's my age.

We're going to message you and ask you
about working with the backstreet boys.

Just this nostalgia.

He did it and he found
a job because of it.

He literally goes, he goes like,
I had a recruiter messaged me and

wanted to talk about backstreet boys.

And then we ended up finding
out I was a good fit for a role.

So, you know, it happens.

I think the second, um, feature is
the Featured section, um, in LinkedIn.

This is a place for you to link
out to other parts of your work.

So whether it's your GitHub, whether
it's your portfolio page, whether it's,

uh, I don't know what it is, right?

Maybe it's a video to
YouTube that you created.

Maybe it's an about me video that
you uploaded to LinkedIn and.

Pinned it there, right?

I think I think that's an incredibly
important feature of the featured section.

You gotta have something there.

And then the last thing is, is I like
recommendations, but I also think they're

kind of dumb at the same time, right?

I just think, you know, when you go,
when you look up a new restaurant to

see if it's good, where do you go?

Google reviews and you
read the Google reviews.

Yep, exactly.

And so for me, it's the same thing.

Recommendations.

So now this now a restaurant
could be kind of mad.

We're gonna go try it out.

My wife and I went to it.

Uh, a phoenix for our anniversary
and we went to a Mexican restaurant.

It wasn't that good and it
got decent reviews, right?

But like we still went, even
though we were kind of on the

fence and for me, it only bolt,
it only boost your profile, right?

If I'm looking at engineer and
one engineer has got five linkedin

recommendations and the other
one has zero, who do you think

I'm going to give the nod to,

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn: you know,
everything else is the same.

I'm going to give the nod
to the person with the five.

So again, it's, it's those, it's that
unconscious bias, which is kind of

what reviews or recommendations are.

And you need to have them
because it only helps you so

Kevin Griffin: Well, let's move on
from LinkedIn a little bit and let's

talk about the other social networks.

So we talked about Twitter.

There's, there's, uh, Instagram,
there's TikTok, there's insert

Blink, , Mastodon, blue Sky.

Do we care about those as much
as we care about LinkedIn?

Should we be doing anything over there?

Taylor Desseyn: If it depends how
much you want to dive into it, man.

I mean, again, if we're talking about,
you know, Kevin is a software developer

who has no social media presence.

I'm just going to say, just,
just focus on LinkedIn, right?

Like You know, social media
is like going to the gym.

You're not just going to jump
immediately into a marathon, right?

And it's the same thing with social media.

You're, you're not going to jump into
like mass, like mastering all platforms.

Like it's taken me.

So I've been at this, what, for three
years now going on four years, I

started with just Twitter and LinkedIn.

Then last than 2021, I added.

2022, I added Instagram and then this year
I'm starting to just focus on YouTube.

So it's like, I mean, it's been a three
year journey and for me, you know, if you

are in tech, I think the next platform
to go to, I think is Twitter, right?

I mean, I think.

I saw, I saw a little bit of
chatter about blue sky on Twitter

the other day and it is Twitter.

I'm never going to call it X,
but for me it's, it's, you know,

I think blue sky had a chance.

I was on blue sky.

I was using it pretty heavily and then it
just, it never seemed to really take off.

They kind of did that invite only too
long is what I, what I saw on Twitter.

Somebody posts.

So for me, I mean, I, the, the.

The tech community is on
Twitter, especially developers.

That's what I just realized.

There's, there's the entire, I mean,
Twitter's done so much for my career.

Um, I've been able to meet so many
amazing people and slide into DMS

of people that I never would have
thought of would even answer me.

Kevin made one of them.

And so like for me, it's just
super, it's super awesome.

But my best example between LinkedIn
and Twitter is LinkedIn is a,

so whenever you go to the lake.

When you like swim at the lake, uh,
and you jump in the water with a

raft for the most part, you're going
to stay in that same area, right?

You're just going to stay.

If you jump into a river on a
raft, you're going to go down

the river pretty quickly, right?

And that's the same thing.

That's the difference between of
linkedin and twitter linkedin.

You can kind of post something that you
can like park the bus and just leave

it one post a day will do really well.

Twitter one post a day isn't gonna get
you anywhere like you kind of got it.

You kind of got to live on it I would
say, you know people people have asked

me like well How many times should
I post it down like Twitter for me?

I post every hour on the hour So that's
around 8 to 10 post a day And then

and then I spout off other thoughts.

So I'm probably tweeting 15 to
20 times a day And it's not all

educational some of its like, you know
I had a pop tart and it was great.

Right.

But all of that kind
of helps, it just does.

And social media, especially as it
relates to, to this podcast, right.

It's basically multi threaded income.

Like how are you generating income
outside of your, your, your nine to

five that that's what this is, right?

If you really want an engine that will
help you get side work, it's marketing.

I mean, I had somebody
mess with me the other day.

He goes, I want to grow my
meetup, but I hate promoting.

What do I do?

I was like, well, you got to promote.

And everybody kind of wants this
freelancer lifestyle until they realize

they have to market themselves and
everybody realizes they hate marketing.

And so, um, but if you really want
to like create a bunch of, I mean,

I, I have been, you know, I've
been asked to host conferences.

I've been able to, I've been offered to
speak at conferences internationally.

Um, all because of Twitter, all because
of LinkedIn, because I put myself out

there and if I would have never done
it, I mean, literally my career has.

Uh, I'm so blessed with my career
skyrocketed over the last four

years because of content creation.

Kevin Griffin: I'll tell you the dirty
secret as a conference organizer and

Taylor Desseyn: Here we

Kevin Griffin: I've run multiple
conferences, my favorite revolution

conf, which sadly we haven't had in
a while, uh, that might be coming

back in the next year or two.

Taylor Desseyn: heard about rev
conf and, and I was excited.

And then when I realized it was
yours, like, oh shit, I love Kevin.

And it's like, well, we
don't have it anymore.

And I was like, damn.

Kevin Griffin: No, maybe,
maybe in the future.

But the dirty secret of RevConf
is every person who presented to

speak, we would, we never did blind
submissions because we didn't agree

that was the best way to do it.

But we would go through, make
our, our list of talks we wanted.

So we would look at the
talk and the abstract.

And then we go back and look
at the speakers and Yeah.

A lot of times when you do these,
you get speakers from everywhere

and a lot of names you don't know,
and it doesn't matter how active I

am in various communities, there's
going to be people I don't know.

So we would sit around on a zoom call
and we'd go through each individual

person and we would say, all right,
does anyone know who Taylor Destin is?

And if everyone says no,
all right, there's LinkedIn.

Let's, let's start stalking this
guy and see what he's all about.

Is he.

Does anyone else know who he is?

And there were people who submitted what
seemed like fairly good talks, but nothing

on LinkedIn or they had a Twitter, but the
last time they posted was two years ago,

they had 10 followers and we would make
decisions based off of the social proof.

There's nothing out there that tells us

Taylor Desseyn: aren't going
to be happy to hear that.

Kevin Griffin: yeah, and I'm.

I'm sure they're gonna be upset, but
I'm also volunteering to pay for your

hotel for a couple days, and if you
need it, I'm willing to pay for your

travel to get out to my conference.

So why are you asking me to make?

A financial, uh,

Taylor Desseyn: bet

Kevin Griffin: bet on you
when no one knows who you are.

If you're out there and you want
to get started in, in conference

talks, you really need to have
some sort of public profile

Taylor Desseyn: For those of you
listening, kind of the moral of this

story is it's never going to hurt.

It's never going to hurt.

And, and, and if anything,
it's only going to help.

Kevin Griffin: I've started
my LinkedIn game, Taylor.

I'm posting maybe not every day,
but every other day, at least,

and just what's on my mind.

I have a fancy banner at
the top of my LinkedIn.

I even did one of those dumb
animated avatars, what should I

be thinking of next after that?

Once I've started that process, I

Taylor Desseyn: man, so, so if you
have a full time job and you post

three times a day on LinkedIn, in my
opinion, I think the next thing to do is

start kind of in your Twitter journey.

Um, I think if you've worked up the
muscle memory of three posts a day,

three posts, sorry, not a day at
three posts a week on LinkedIn, um,

and you feel pretty comfortable,
you're kind of getting the hang of it.

You feel.

You don't feel weird posting anymore.

You kind of broken the seal per se.

Um, the next thing I would do is hop on
Twitter and create a Twitter account.

Um, and there are a lot of
people, um, out there on the

Twitter world that you can follow.

Um, you know what I would do if you're
listening to this podcast and you're

like, well, I like what Taylor has to say.

Let me follow him.

Please do.

It's at T.

Destin.

Um, and for me, what I would do is
I would follow me and then I would

start, I would literally go to my
followers, the people I follow, and

then I would follow all those people.

Um, and then I would go to Kevin's
profile and I would follow it.

Everybody that Kevin follows and all I
would start doing is, is when you start

on Twitter, I would actually just start
engaging with people first because the

way it works, like if you just start
tweeting and no one's really following

you and no one's really engaged, you're
actually not going to go anywhere.

Um, for me, if I, if I were to restart
Twitter again with zero followers, I

would follow everybody in the community
who, who I like all their followers.

And then I would start
commenting, retweeting.

liking, engaging everybody else
before I would start posting, right?

Because you don't have any brand built up.

You don't have like, there's no
reason for someone to follow you other

than you have to reach out to them.

And so once you've built up, I
would say probably a hundred or 200

followers, then I would start probably
given some thoughts on your own.

Um, but again, Twitter,
Twitter is an animal.

I would have it up on your, your
computer while you're working.

I know we all have slack up
on our, on our computers.

I have slack and discord on our
up on my computer right now.

You just got to have Twitter up.

Twitter is like a slack Twitter
is like a discord and I would

just start engaging and start
commenting because here's the deal.

I can't tell you.

There's so many people I know
that I've never met in person.

But I feel like I know them all
because we've only commented and

liked and tweeted back and forth.

It is a crazy thing.

I wish I had time to dive into like the
human psychology of this and why, like

we just feel so comfortable talking to
people, but like there's this one guy.

He's a, he's an incredible creator.

His name's Tim Chisano.

Tim Chisano is out of Brooklyn, New York.

Um, and he has over a million followers on
Tik TOK and he, all he does is his vlog.

Um, and literally I was telling my
wife the other night, I was like.

I feel like if I ran into him and
because he talks about his wife

and his daughter all the time, very
similar to me, wife and daughter.

And I was like, I feel like if I ran into
Tim in Brooklyn, I could hit it off with

him because I know everything about him.

Kevin Griffin: think that
was our first interaction in

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah, it was, it was,

Kevin Griffin: like

Taylor Desseyn: was because, because I
saw, again, I, we talked about this on

my last podcast that you were on with me.

The power of like your headshot and your
public appearance, you have one of the

happiest headshots I've ever witnessed
in my entire career and I knew you were

a friendly person without even meeting
you or really even interacting with

you because your headshot and it gave
me the confidence to come up to you

because I knew you were going to be kind
because of the way your headshot looked,

which I think is, it's an incredibly
powerful thing that no one talks about.

Kevin Griffin: absolutely.

Um, what if you are an introvert?

So talking to people is difficult for you.

Yeah.

Any, any hidden tips there
to just start engaging?

I see, I actually have this problem myself
where I have a lot of folks I'm following.

I have people that follow me, but I
don't feel like I need to chime in on

every, on every message that comes in.

I actually have a lot of posts I
put on Twitter where I'll write

it out and I'm ready to hit post
and go, maybe I don't want to send

that and I'll actually undo it.

Um, yeah.

Any tips for trying to overcome
some of that introvertness?

Taylor Desseyn: I'm an introvert, right.

And that startles the
living heck out of people.

When I tell them that, um, I, I heard
there was this one create on tech talk.

Her name's Elise Myers and
she's fricking hilarious.

Kevin Griffin: I love her.

Yes.

Taylor Desseyn: yeah, she's amazing.

She's amazing.

And, uh, it's just so genuine, so funny.

And she, she, she, she had a.

She had a tick talk like a year or two
ago about, and it really resonated with me

about social sprinting and, you know, and,
and so that's, that's what I do, right?

Like I'm really good in short
burst, really between the

hours of eight and eight.

A lot of conference organizers know
I'm never going to go out after hours.

I'm in my hotel room.

Um, and, and for me, like social
media really is the unlock,

especially if you're introverted.

I, so just, I mean, full transparency,
I talk about this in a lot of podcasts.

I hit kind of my first
depression bout in 2018.

Um, I didn't know what it was at the time.

Um, uh, me and my wife were
going to marriage counseling

cause I was in a rough spot.

So that obviously affected our marriage
and our marriage counselor was like,

Taylor, you need to go find somebody.

She goes, I think everything you're
experiencing is, is depression.

She goes, you need to go out.

Find an individual counselor.

I'm really big on mental health.

And so I went out and found one and,
and kind of been on that kind of

mental health journey ever since.

And, and, and what I realized is that,
um, I get overstimulated really fast.

Um, and, and I think a lot of
people do, and people don't really

use that term a lot and that they
usually use it with babies, right?

Oh, our, our child is overstimulated.

Well, adults can get overstimulated.

And what I realized is that when I was in
the office, I was managing a team of 12.

I was meeting with engineers all day.

I was in leadership meetings and I
would come home and then I have to

be a father and a dad and a husband.

I mean, I mean, I mean,
we all get it right.

Who's listening to this?

Who's a parent?

And and it just it just something
cracked and and I just couldn't take

it anymore and I just hated everything.

And so for me, so Um, I have learned
that I am not the person like if, like

if you, um, like I'm going to try to
go to the Java meetup tonight because,

um, my guy, Josh Long speaking there,
um, uh, the spring advocate and he,

but like, If I go, I'm not talking to
people like I'm not talking to people.

Um, what, what I've realized is
that I'm much more effective on

content creation and social media,
and I will absolutely meet with you.

But in more of a small group setting,
small groups are my jam, right?

Like if I can go to a dinner with
five people, that's where I thrive.

I think once you get past that seven to
10, that's where I freak out a little bit.

And so, um, for me, for, for all you
introverts that are watching or listening,

um, in the future, I am an introvert
and I want to give you hope that if you

really want to put yourself out there,
but are terrified, uh, the best way to

do it is through social media because
you can put it out whenever you're ready.

Um, and, and you don't have to talk
to people necessarily, which is great.

Kevin Griffin: The discussion of LinkedIn,
writing stuff on LinkedIn, and now

trying to engage with folks on Twitter.

We haven't really talked about,
like, content, content reuse.

If I'm putting something on
LinkedIn, should I be putting

that same stuff on Twitter?

When eventually I get to the point
where I want to Start posting.

I'm not just interacting
with, uh, with others.

Should I just be putting
that content everywhere?

Should I?

Only keep LinkedIn content on LinkedIn
and do Twitter stuff on Twitter.

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah.

And I mean, people are going to have
their own takes on this for sure.

I mean, in, in my two cents, if
you're getting started, um, I think

making a post on LinkedIn, then
I think a post on LinkedIn could

probably be two or three tweets.

To be honest, like, like, like if you
do a, if, if you do a five sentence

post on LinkedIn, you could probably
get two or three tweets out of that.

And so that's kind of how
I would do starting out.

So if you're, and, but then like, then
if you're at where I'm at, where you're

deep in it, I AB test everything.

So I AB test all my content on Twitter.

So what that means is I just.

Twitter is, is a pure brain dump.

And then the tweets that do really
well, I then post on LinkedIn.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, that's a great idea.

Taylor Desseyn: So yesterday I tweeted
how, I don't know if you saw it

about how I really truly feel like
their react engineers are a dime a

dozen now, and there's not a lot of
backend engineers who I posted that

on LinkedIn and it's gone viral.

And it, because I knew it would have
done well because it did well on Twitter.

And so that now, again, if you listen
to this, I've been at this thing for

three and a half years now already.

So like I I've, I've, I've
perfected the art of it.

If you're just starting
out, don't worry about it.

Just, uh, take, take, you know, take a few
tweets from your LinkedIn post and then

kind of come up with some other stuff.

Kevin Griffin: I'm doing LinkedIn.

I'm doing the Twitters.

Uh, I'm starting to get some traction.

That's all great.

I'm doing my job.

And it's just one of those things
you have to attend the garden, right?

You can't just do it in a spurt and all
of a sudden you start growing flowers.

You, you kind of have
to keep it up for ever.

Taylor Desseyn: Yeah, at least a year.

So I get this question a lot.

They're like, Taylor, how long do I
need to post before things happen?

And it's like, well,
what, what's your goal?

Right.

So like, you know, for me, my goal was
to drive revenue back to the business.

Right.

So I wanted CTOs, VPs of
engineering founders to use me to

staff up their engineering teams.

And so that was what my goal was.

If your goal is to speak at conferences.

I think that's great if your goal
is to make, you know, again, side

money, multi, multi threaded income.

I think that's great too.

But I, I, I would pick what your goal is.

And, and for me is I kind of posted
into the abyss for about six months

before anything, before anybody
even started to pay attention.

And then I would say a year
into it, a year into my content

creation, that's when I started a
new division at my last company.

Cause I had enough.

Throughput where there was enough
things starting to come at me.

I had five hiring managers call me
in a span of a week, five different

hiring managers at different
companies call me in a week.

Kevin Griffin: Wow.

Taylor Desseyn: Um, and that's
when the market started to rip.

So for March of 2021 to, to
obviously 2022 was, was pretty nice.

And so, um, yeah, so a year, I mean, I
am telling you content and posting and

marketing is just like going to the gym.

You're never going to
reach the mountaintop.

You're probably not even going
to observe the changes that well,

until one day you look up and you
have a six pack all of a sudden.

And that's exactly like content creation.

You kind of just have to keep doing it.

And I like, and again, like I had
a call, I had a company reach out

to me last week, 25 job orders.

25 positions.

I mean, and I was telling my
wife that, cause you know, again,

I've been pretty open about this.

Like I've taken a hit cause I've
been relatively heavy commission and

I've chosen to be a very deep in the
engineering space with what I do.

And we're in an engineering
recession, right?

So I'm making 40 percent less, 40
to 50 percent less than I have.

And my wife and I were talking to her.

She was like, she was like, you
know, how sale, you know, I forgot

we were talking about content
creation and sales or something.

And I told her, I was like, they're
just at bats every day I wake up.

Every day I post, there's a part of me
that has my fingers crossed and like,

today's the day I'm going to get a
call for 10 rolls or two rolls, right?

Today's the day, but you just never
know when it's going to happen.

And so that's why you
just got to keep at it.

Kevin Griffin: yeah, it's all about
is so linked in Twitter, all that

you're putting things out and just
needs to happen at the right time that

the right set of eyes look at a post
you're making and something clicks.

Um, I tell the same story to, uh,
to a friend of mine where I try to

convince him to go to conferences,
go to conferences, do networking.

And I said, all we look at his
successes, we look at a lot of my

successes and so many of those happened
because we were at a bar and having

a conversation with someone who was
looking for what we were selling.

And if you don't go out and you're
not putting yourself out there, you're

never going to hit those people at
the right time, at the right moment.

And it's paid off dividends for me
because I think every big success I've

had professionally has been because
I was at the right place at the right

time to, or talking to the right person.

And

Taylor Desseyn: mean,
it's really the lottery.

I mean, it really is when it comes
to your career, when it comes to

having different types of incomes, you
just kind of put yourself out there.

And if you're not, you are, you are
really missing out because we, because

if you think about it, Like if we, if
you lived in a world where there was

no social media and there was really no
internet, like back, let's just say pre

internet days, the only way to meet people
was like, you would sign up for like,

you know, these like business bureaus.

Kevin Griffin: yeah,

Taylor Desseyn: like, you know, paid
things to get into, um, you know,

toast masters, stuff like that, right?

You would like kind of have to like buy
into these things to get access to people.

It's free now.

Kevin Griffin: yeah.

Taylor Desseyn: It's free.

And for me, like, I want to try to
get this across because I just feel

like people, like, you're not behind.

Like, I've talked to my
content creation guy, like.

Most of the population is still has
not started their content journey.

And my head of sales, who I
just, we, we just brought him on.

Um, he literally told me, he
goes, I think cold calling sucks.

And I was like, I want to
hug you through the phone.

The fact that we have a head of
sales that hates cold calling, but

he understands, he goes, no one
answers their phones these days.

no, no one and traditional marketing.

I mean, for those of you listening,
this wouldn't like when you watch

TV, do you watch commercials?

No, you pull out your phone, right?

Like, and I don't know about
you, Kevin, with traveling.

My wife and I haven't turned on
the TV in our hotel room to last

like four trips that we've taken.

We're just, we just, we're just on
Tik Tok or Netflix on our phones.

Kevin Griffin: Yep.

I've noticed that as well.

Uh, if I'm even in my room, I'm probably
watching YouTube on my laptop and

Taylor Desseyn: So like you, you like
the social media drives and narratives

around our dinner table, right?

Hey, did you see what's own?

So posted on facebook, right?

Did you see what your
friend posted on instagram?

Did you see that meme I sent you?

We all talk about this stuff,
but then we don't take it from

a professional standpoint.

Seriously, it's wild.

And so that that's, that's the
one thing I want to get across.

Like, listen, like you can literally
transform your entire career.

Yeah.

By just starting to post to social media.

If you're in business, start on LinkedIn.

If you're like B B to C, you know,
again, if you're selling a t shirt or

hat, take talk and Instagram, but if
you're in business, especially software,

Twitter and LinkedIn is where it's at..

Kevin Griffin: All right.

Any other thoughts that we
haven't brought up organically?

Taylor?

Taylor Desseyn: I just want to stress.

Because it's changed my career is
just start, just start once a day.

It doesn't take that long.

I think I patronize people a
little bit and I'm going to

patronize the listener right now.

You know what the first thing
people do when they get laid off is?

Kevin Griffin: Cry.

Taylor Desseyn: And then what?

They post to LinkedIn.

Kevin Griffin: They post LinkedIn.

Taylor Desseyn: So you're telling me
that when you lose a job, your first

thought is to cry, then go post to
LinkedIn, but yet you're not going to

leverage LinkedIn on a consistent basis?

Get out of here.

Get out of here.

Right.

If you think linkedin is that much
value where you lose your job and

you tell the world and hope somebody
will see it, then you should have

already been doing it from the get go.

So I'm, I'm going to end right there.

Kevin Griffin: We'll go ahead and
start wrapping things up on that note.

If you're not doing it already,
just get started today.

Uh, Taylor, thanks so much
for hanging out with us today.

Uh, anything you'd like to promote
while you have the mic still?

Taylor Desseyn: If people still like
me after that conversation, I felt

like it came a little hard, but I
really want to encourage people.

I, you know, listen, I'm at T S and T D E
S S E Y N on all social media platforms.

Um, literally all of them.

Um, and then I have a
podcast guidance counselor 2.

0.

Um, we'd love to, we'd
love to have it along.

All my content is around helping
people live up their careers.

Kevin Griffin: I would highly
recommend, uh, Guidance Counselor 2.

0.

It's a fun show, um, to not just be on,
but I've, I've watched several of them.

It's a really interesting take
into the, the hiring and the human

aspects of Of the tech industry.

So highly recommended for me.

And it's on LinkedIn.

Like while you're watching, why
don't you go write a post and

Taylor Desseyn: literally.

So, so I will tell you this.

I've had people and I fully encourage it.

If you don't know what to
post, just document my podcast.

Kevin Griffin: there you go.

Taylor Desseyn: And literally
I've had people do it and

they've like made a huge headway.

Um, I've, I've had one guy he
would like green screen like my

show and like give his thoughts.

And then I have another guy who now
is at DevRel at Clerc with Demetrius.

And uh, it's Dev.

Dev used to document my show every day.

Kevin Griffin: Content is content, right?

And adding your own

Taylor Desseyn: is king.

Content is king.

Also, it's a great way to
build relationships too.

So yeah, again, get started.

You won't regret it.

Kevin Griffin: Excellent.

All right, Taylor, thank you
again for hanging out with us.

Uh, go to gun.

io if you are looking for a gig
or if you're looking to hire.

Taylor Desseyn: Yes.

If you're looking to hire.

So I will tell you this right now.

We are definitely more, we have paused our
platform because of the amount of interest

we've gotten from developers because
of the way this market is right now.

So you can't get onto
our platform right now.

I'm sorry.

We're trying to fix it and be more
intentional, but if you're hiring,

we got a shit ton of developers we
need to, we need to find jobs for.

Um, so again, we.

all over the world.

If you are in Australia,
we can hire for you.

Um, so yeah, Taylor at,
or Taylor Destin at gun.

io is my email.

Kevin Griffin: Excellent.

All right, Taylor.

Thanks again.

Everyone else.

Thank you for listening to the
multi threaded income podcast,

and we'll see you all next week.

Taylor Desseyn: Peace.

You've been listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

I really hope that this podcast
has been useful for you.

If it has, please take a moment to leave a
review wherever you get your podcast from.

And don't forget, the
conversation doesn't stop here.

Join us on our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

I've been your host Kevin Griffin
and we'll see you next week.

Cha ching!