Multithreaded Income Podcast

It's time for the multi
threaded income podcast.

We're like insurance for a
turbulent tech landscape.

I'm your host, Kevin Griffin.

Join me as I chat with people all around
the industry who are using their skills

to build multiple threads of income.

Let us support you in your career
by joining our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

Now let's get started.

Kevin Griffin: Hey everyone, welcome
back to the multithreaded income podcast.

I'm joined today by my
special guest, Brian Gorman.

How are you, Brian?

Brian Gorman: I'm doing great.

Thanks for having me, Kevin.

Kevin Griffin: Absolutely.

So Brian, you and I
met how many years ago?

,
Brian Gorman: 2019 KCDC.

Kevin Griffin: Which one was that?

Brian Gorman: It was KCDC 2019.

Kevin Griffin: Okay.

Cause I believe at the time you
were working for Opsgility, right?

Brian Gorman: Yeah,

Kevin Griffin: Yep.

And I was a hostility
author, um, or not author.

I was doing training for him.

Um, so it was just as good coincidence.

Our paths had met.

Brian Gorman: Yeah.

It was like within a year of that, like,
I think all that kind of happened all

at once because we met at KCDC and then,
yeah, I started working at Opsagility

somewhere in there, maybe before, maybe
after, by a little bit, I'm not sure.

And then, yeah, you were building a
course for Opsagility and I happened to be

slated as the technical editor for that.

Kevin Griffin: Okay.

Yeah,

Brian Gorman: forgotten that until
you just mentioned it, honestly.

I just remember meeting you at KCDC
thinking you were a cool dude and

hanging out with you at the, we were
having like some bird hens or something.

But Ha

Kevin Griffin: Cause you, uh, you
said nice things about the course.

And I am like, I really
like this technical editor.

I should, I should get
more courses edited by him.

Uh, I forgot about that.

Thanks for like reigniting my memory.

Brian Gorman: Yeah, yeah, well, I'd
forgot about it too, so, that's funny.

Kevin Griffin: Uh, so Brian, you're not.

At OpsJillian anymore.

Kind of tell folks out there
who don't know who you are.

What, uh, what do you currently do?

Brian Gorman: Yeah, so, I left Opsagility
a little bit ago and went out on my own.

I still subcontract through Opsagility.

That's my main, uh, one of my main
things that I do, um, right now.

And ultimately that's gotten me into the
Microsoft software systems Academy or MSSA

program where I'm currently training on.

Um, I also do consulting.

So like my business is
consulting and training.

And, uh, so most of the summer I
actually spent consulting, which was

actually a really nice trade change
of pace, but I love it because.

Um, I'm a really big advocate for
practical knowledge over theoretical

knowledge and a lot of training is high
level academic and you got to keep your

hands in the, in the, in the fire, so to
speak, to like, make sure that you're up

to date on current things and you're not
just spewing out what a textbook says

or what, uh, you know, a document says,
but you actually have some practical.

Like experience being baptized by fire
for lack of a better way of saying

it like we've got to get this thing
to work and the documentation says

it works this way, but that's not
working for us for whatever reason.

Like, what's the gitches,
gotchas, things like that.

So, yeah, so that's what I do.

Um, we mentioned a little bit
off off camera, but ultimately,

uh, I've written two books.

One of them actually has a second edition.

Um, that's the Practical
Unity Framework book.

And then I just finished last year
the AZ 204 CERT, uh, Companion.

Both of those, uh, books are available
through Apress or Amazon or whatever if

you're interested in that kind of thing.

Or they're online in like O'Reilly's
stuff and, you know, if you have that too.

So there's lots of ways to see those.

But yeah, we talked
early on about all that.

So I think

Kevin Griffin: you find having a
book for a technical certification?

Do you think that that sort of
thing does better than you're just

Random subject technical book.

Brian Gorman: Unfortunately, no.

I was actually really surprised by this.

Like And maybe it's just the way
that the book was written or just

the lack of like the technical
editor that I That hired me to do

the book went to a different company.

And so I got passed off to another
technical editor And so I don't know

if there was just a disconnect there
or whatever But like the the book was

finished and it just doesn't seem to
have gotten any traction well, I was

really surprised because I thought
Everybody would want a book on AZ 204 now.

The other thing though is Along the
same token of me releasing this book

is right about the same time Microsoft
said, Hey, by the way, here's all

the AZ 204 material on MS Learn.

So maybe part of now that certification,
the book isn't as valuable because

you can get a lot of, a lot of
information for free online.

Um, I still like to think that I
bring a practical like twist to

it to give you a little more in
depth than just the material, but

sometimes it's pretty similar.

So, uh, I was surprised.

Kevin Griffin: I always like to say
with certifications, specifically

Microsoft certifications, because
there was a time in my life I was M.

C.

S.

A.

M.

C.

S.

E.

Uh, I did the gambit of the micro like
Windows server certifications, and

we used to say there's the right way
the wrong way the Microsoft way, and

there's there's the way that Microsoft
wants you to do it and how they'll

ask the question on the certification.

But then there's there's a
way that Microsoft wants you

You would actually do it.

Brian Gorman: So, so I've
actually talked about this before.

Um, that was so totally true.

Like what you're saying was the
epitome of the experience you would

have in the early days, like even the.

net one.

net two days of certs.

It was like, this is what
Microsoft really wants you to say.

The answer is for this, but you
would go do it in the real world.

And it, yeah.

Sure.

That works, but it's not what
you want to do in the real world.

You find a better way or a different
way, or just the simple fact that

there's six ways to do something you
never even thought of doing it that way.

Right?

So I will say though, that since they
switched to the role based certs where

they're now Azure focused and like they
even have these skilling initiatives

now that you can do for free online,
that stuff has become much more in

line with what you actually do in the
real world than it was in the past.

So if you haven't taken
a cert for a while.

You might be surprised by some of
the practicality of it, especially

like now They're working in like real
live exam, like in the, in the exam,

you actually have to do like things
in Azure, like to make it happen.

And so, yeah, you, it's, it's a lot
different and you get access to MS

learn now, which is a whole new thing.

Like you can actually look things up.

So the whole idea, and actually it's
funny cause I've on a couple of their

podcasts this morning and, and talking
to them, we had a very similar thing

about, you know, just like the, the, the
fact that you have to memorize stuff.

For an exam, you feel like
you have to memorize stuff.

You don't have to do that anymore.

Because you can look up what
the SKUs are in MS Learn now.

And you don't have to know this SKU
does that thing as much as you used to.

Right?

So you don't feel like it's just
an exam mem, you know, memorization

type of operation like you used to.

So, yeah.

It's

Kevin Griffin: It's good to hear
they're catching up with modern times.

Cause I very much remember taking
certifications and going, all

right, I've memorized like a
window, a group administrator.

Policies and trying to remember
all of them at game time.

And it's not like you're
using a real interface.

You're using their, it was
their simulated interfaces.

So you, you didn't have access
to everything that you probably

should have had access to.

Um, that's really good to hear.

It's kind of like when I was in high
school and maybe when you were in

high school too, if you took a math
class, you couldn't use a calculator

because they said you would never have
a calculator with you at all times.

Like, yes, I do

Brian Gorman: So, and so can
we just transition that now?

Because I've just been talking
about this with a lot of people too.

Like that same conversation is almost
exactly the conversation we're having

now in introduction to programming with

Kevin Griffin: Yeah,

Brian Gorman: because now you
should learn how to program,

but chat GPT will do it for me.

Just like the calculator.

You still need to know how to put the
numbers in the calculator and push the

right buttons, but how much, how much
is AI assisted coding, like co pilot.

Almost the same type of scenario,
and now I'm the old fogey saying

you can't use it because you have
to learn how to program first.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Brian Gorman: I don't know, it's funny.

Kevin Griffin: Oh, to the degree.

You have to know if chat
GPT is wrong, right?

Brian Gorman: You do, you

Kevin Griffin: doing enough.

Brian.

I want to move on.

You have the books.

I know you're doing consulting on the
side to kind of keep your skills up.

Um, you and I were kind of
having conversation of it's good

to have the consulting side in
addition to the training side.

Just so you're well versed.

I don't think anyone likes a trainer who
doesn't have any real world experience.

Um, yeah.

I'm very much the same way.

I used to do, I'm going to call it
bespoke training because I would do very

customized training for different clients.

And my rule was it had to be
something I've done in production.

And what ended up coming out
of those was not so much.

Here's how you do X, Y and Z.

But here's all the things I've run
into and like practical examples.

And Always feel like in the end that
people get a more authentic training

experience from that because you can
instantly prove, you know exactly what

you're talking about because you've
been there and you've done that.

Brian Gorman: Yeah, I've Go ahead.

Kevin Griffin: No, go ahead.

Brian Gorman: I was just gonna
say, I did some similar stuff,

and I've only had one person that
complained that I showed errors.

So most people really like it when you are
training and you, you show them something

that they think that you kind of feel like
the natural thought is you will do this.

So you just have the training,
you like have them do that because

that's what they're thinking they
should do and they see the error

and then they have to fix it.

But that's, that's the kind
of thing I love because you're

going to run into that error.

And now you've seen it and
you know how to fix it.

Rather than just like, here's the A to
Z step by step thing you have to do.

And oops, if you go off this,
you're going to get an error

that you've never seen before.

Right.

So anyway, I'm totally on board with that.

Kevin Griffin: So let's recap.

All right.

You're consulting, you're the
training, you have the books.

Um, you also have some Udemy courses
and I don't think I've actually been

able to sit down and talk to someone
about the experience of Udemy.

So why don't we talk about,
you have two Udemy courses.

What are they?

Brian Gorman: Well, yeah, I, so I have two
Udemy courses that are around Git and MVC.

Um, so, um, actually have, so.

The Git course, I actually have, I
actually have a number of courses

at Udemy, but my main ones are a Git
advanced commands, a Git branching

and merging, and a introduction, or
basically what I call the MVC quick start.

\ I was working as a professor for Franklin
University out of Columbus, Ohio in the

computer science department as an adjunct
on the side while I was a developer.

And.

I had all these introduction to program
courses and the students needed more

access to me and I just couldn't do it.

Um, so I built videos, I put
them on Udemy way back in 2013

when Udemy was like brand new.

Um, so I actually have an intro to
programming course that was built in

2013 that is still on Udemy, but it's
not in the Udemy for business program.

So you're, you're familiar with this, um,
that the real lucrative part of Udemy.

Is the Udemy for business part, you
can put, there's, there's 60 bazillion

people putting courses on Udemy, but
if you can get your course into the

Udemy for business, that's when the,
that's when it actually starts to

like have a revenue that is at least
not pennies on the dollar, right?

It's not, it's not 50, 000 a year by any
means, and I wish it was, but you know,

it is enough to be like, Hey, this is
a substantial change in, um, difference

over just a regular Udemy course.

So, so my get one is out there and my MVC
one is out there and I honestly am just

sitting down and Replanning because I'm
gonna rerecord all the get videos Just

because like they still say master to
be honest and like at this point it need

they need to see me So it's just and it's
fun for me to read read up the videos.

Anyway, do it again So so that's going on

Kevin Griffin: Now, are you planning
on doing that as a replacement

of the videos you already have?

So if I'm already a student, I
just get all the brand new videos.

Are you going to re release it?

Yeah.

Brian Gorman: my plan is just to
keep those courses fresh So they

will stay Because to stay in the
Udemy for Business program, you have

to have a certain higher rating.

Um, and if you get too many bad ratings,
they'll, they'll kick your course out.

So, if my course starts to become
too stale, which the nice thing about

Git is that it, Git hasn't changed
except for adding the switch command.

And I don't even know when they did that,
but that was like years ago at this point.

And other than the master domain
thing, that was the other major thing.

Everything else about
Git is exactly the same.

So, a video recorded five years
ago isn't necessarily stale.

It just looks stale to this
to the students, right?

So just the fact that it looks stale
at this point, and the fact that a

couple changes have happened, and
just a couple of things I've learned

along the way that I want to re up.

But yes, the whole idea is replace
what's there with better content, newer

content, and provide it, you know,
continuous value to those students.

I do that, I, I upped, I re upped the
MVC course when they went to NET 6.

Now they're on.

net eight.

At some point I need to probably,
the, the difference is there is like.

NET six and NET eight.

There hasn't been enough change for the
stuff I'm teaching to make it worthwhile.

Um, so I'll probably maybe even wait
till NET 10, but at some point again,

I will be re upping that one because it
was, that course is actually morphed.

I made it, to be honest, I
made it as kind of a joke.

Um, it was like, I just want to show
people how, and I gave it away for free.

I just want to show people how to like.

How fast, because I was mad, I
was frustrated with like some of

the things I was doing for Java
on the servlet side and stuff.

This was a while ago.

Right.

But it's just like I can in
five minutes and I didn't know a

spring boot at the time either.

So I can in five minutes be up and
running, have a database connection and

have like crud operations and be done.

Watch this boom, boom, boom.

And then I recorded it.

And here's an hour long
course I did for free.

And then people were
like loving this course.

I'm like, what, this is like
basic stuff, like a tutorial.

So then it morphed into how
you can actually structure.

Now it's not just that it's, I
show like multi, like interior.

I have unit testing, integration testing.

So you have the ground up experience of
building the entire app and getting it out

into an Azure app service with, I would, I
would like to add, I don't have it in that

course yet, but I would like to add stuff
for Key Vault, protecting your secrets.

One of the talks I do at conferences just
to kind of add that final touch to it.

So, yeah, they, they continue to morph.

And I think if you want to stay relevant.

In that area, if that's what you
like to do, like, I don't think you

can just push a video and just be
like, that's good enough for a life.

There is a, a presence that you
have to have for those students.

So.

Kevin Griffin: I'm finding with my
signal our mastery you to me course.

Uh, it's based currently
off dot net six and yeah.

Thankfully, what you just kind of
mentioned, it hasn't changed enough where

I need to go back and change any videos.

If anything, I could add a couple
supplementary videos to talk

about new features that would
be useful for the students.

Um, but you're absolutely right.

Getting into Udemy for business was
game changing because that's a, that

took it from a peaks and valleys.

In terms of revenue to a fairly steady
revenue stream, um, where I'm almost

scared to just say it's, it's reliable
monthly income, um, of, and we're not

talking like change your life money,
but it's, it's car payment money.

That's probably the best way to say it.

Um,

Brian Gorman: how I say it.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah, and I always
say in the back of my mind,

like, okay, if I had 10 of these,

Brian Gorman: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: then it
becomes life changing money.

Like you could quit your job
and well, maybe, I don't know.

It depends.

Um, but you could, you know,
not work as hard doing the other

things and just do the content.

And I've always liked that, that idea.

Brian Gorman: One thing I'll say about
that really quick before you move

on is just the reason that, that,
that, that looks good and sounds

good on paper, but I'll caution you.

And I think this is relevant for your
audience too, is like, never build your

business on someone else's platform.

Cause the second Udemy changes
their rules, your income could go

straight through the roof or straight
to the seller, or they could just

say, we're shutting it down or, or
they kick you out of the program.

And then what are you going to do?

Right?

So anyway, now we can move on.

Kevin Griffin: Well, funny enough,
uh, One of the things we were talking

about earlier was a lot of work I
had done and then got shut down.

So if I wasn't, if I was being
compensated on a per view basis,

that would have just dried up,
um, overnight because the company

decided not to go in that direction.

Um, so you're absolutely right.

And also, it might be worth just
talking to the listeners about the

Udemy model, There, you mentioned you
to me for business, but how, how do

we make money as an author on Udemy?

So assume I just, I create a new course,
that's three, four hours long or more.

And I put up on Udemy, uh, Brian,
what should I, how should I expect

to make money from that course?

Brian Gorman: Yeah.

So that's the, the million dollar
question, because it seems like

there are some people that no matter
what they do, it turns into gold.

Right.

Um, and the other people like
you could have the best course

out there and it's like crickets.

Um, so there are some strategies
and a lot of people have actually

built a living around making like,
this is how you put courses on Udemy

and become really rich doing it.

Um, but let's talk about the basic
person like you and me or any other

developer or anybody who has something
to share with the world, right?

And they think I should, I should
try to monetize this content

because it's, it's useful enough.

It's providing value.

And honestly, people are asking me
so much that it would be really nice

to just point them to some videos.

Um, I would say go for it, even if it
doesn't make a dime, you will learn from

the process skills around video editing,
um, getting your audio set up, realizing

that once you start recording, recording
a course, if you move your microphone,

you probably just wrecked everything.

So you got to like kind of have this,
yeah, you got to have this like steady,

like don't touch anything until the
course is produced because otherwise,

um, you'll learn, you know, all that
stuff, but it will also force you

to go deeper in your craft because
you'll realize about halfway through.

Oh, I should probably add something
to this because I might be taking

for granted that they did know
something that maybe they don't.

Right?

So, so I'd say go for it.

So you say, okay, I'm going to try it.

You go to Udemy, you
sign up for an account.

You say, I would like to be an instructor.

Guess what?

You're an instructor on Udemy.

There's no vetting, right?

But you've got to now go through
their system and create a bunch

of courses or create your course.

And they have a number of rules,
especially if you're a new instructor.

It's a lot harder now than it was.

In 2013, obviously, um, you have
to get like, I think you submit

a video and they vet it and say
your audio is bad or whatever.

And then once you get that
part figured out now, you can

actually release your course.

So you got to, you need to structure
it well with sections and then you

got to type all the things and.

Now, all the students want talking
heads and they want quizzes and exams

and all the things, all the bells and
whistles that you didn't necessarily

have to have back in the day.

Um, so just plan that
well, make it useful.

And I would say, like you said, nothing
longer than three or four hours.

Like my introduction to
programming is a nine hour course.

And to record, to fix that now or
rerecord that is, it's such a massive

undertaking that like I haven't.

Had the energy to do it.

Whereas like the get course, the
advanced commands, I can do that.

And, you know, it's a three
hour, four hour course.

I can do that.

And, and within a month I could
probably have that reproduced, right?

It's not going to take me all year.

Um, and that's just on the side.

I mean, that's not a
full time thing, right?

So, so then you release it, you push
the button, boom, it's out there.

The strategies are make sure it shows
up well in their SEO, um, get people

to review it fast and furiously, um,
because if you can get what they call

hot or something like new and hot, then
all of a sudden it gets the attention

and then it's like their algorithm pushes
it to the top and then everybody buys

and that's your, that's your snowball.

Um, so it is a game to do that, but
again, I would say even through all of

that, if somehow you can get your course.

To be like reputable enough
and noticeable enough that you

get it into Udemy for business.

That's when the change, the
game will change for you on

Kevin Griffin: So what does
Udemy for business give me

outside of just regular Udemy?

Brian Gorman: Okay.

So, so regular Udemy is just like, you
know, anybody in the world can buy the

course for, and, and, oh, I forgot to
mention, you can do it one of two ways.

Yeah.

One of two ways.

You can either say, I will not
ever let you promote my course and

thereby my course will let's say 59.

99.

And only people can buy
it, they buy it for 59.

99, of which you will see 15.

99, right?

You will not, never, you will never
get full price for your course.

So, I, you know, if I have
a course listed at 99.

99, and I don't market it, or I don't
put it in their marketing program,

Even if someone buys it, unless I have
directly linked them to my course,

then there's some affiliate fee or
other thing that's attached to it.

And Um, some overhead fee that
Udemy charges anyway, and you

would get about 20 at that, right?

So, you're never going to win the game
at Udemy playing that, I don't think.

Maybe you, maybe you might, but
if, if that's your model, I would

suggest just doing your own thing
on your own platform at this point.

Don't even bother with Udemy because
you're never going to get what

you want and you're still going
to be under their rules, right?

And I'm not saying their rules are bad.

Their rules are established for
Udemy's reasons and all the things.

But I really like about Udemy
is that I never had to market.

I put my courses in
their marketing program.

Now, what does that mean for me?

Well, I charge 59.

99 for a course, but every
week they sell it for 9.

99.

And of that 9.

99, I see a dollar, right?

But that's a dollar that I didn't
have, and a student that I didn't have.

And if all I really care about is
helping students and helping people

skill up, and there they are.

And they, you know, I
made a dollar from it.

Great, you know.

So I don't mind the, the,
the marketing program.

So that's the normal game, but
now we go into Udemy for business.

Now it's a subscription model.

So suddenly when you do that, there's
some new rules for number one, your

course has to be unique at Udemy.

You can't, you can't farm
it out to other platforms.

So like,

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Brian Gorman: think, you know,
like the other big ones like

Pluralsight and LinkedIn learning.

They're going to be the same way.

Like you wouldn't be able to put a
course on LinkedIn learning and then

also sell it on Udemy and vice versa.

Right.

Cause that just doesn't make any sense
that their competitors and they want to

be able to offer a product rightfully.

So that is unique to them.

So now I'm, I'm exclusive, which
can limit your opportunities, right?

Especially if you're independent, but
the revenue model is based on now how

many minutes of your stuff is watched and
you're put in front of business audience.

So now your course is.

It's not so you, you can, you can
hone in on things that are like,

you've got signal are, and you've
got that, that corner nailed.

Right?

So if someone on Udemy is like,
Hey, I need a signal are I would

bet they're saying, Hey, go
watch Kevin Griffin's course.

Right?

Hopefully they're saying, you know, if
they, if someone says get, they say,

Hey, go watch Gorman's course, right?

Or whatever, because that is the
one that helps someone else that

they know, but now they have the
subscription model and then suddenly

you're getting a share of the revenue.

Based on how many minutes
are watched of your course.

So the more useful your course
is and the more it's viewed,

the better your month might be.

But like you said, it's a pretty
steady, there's not the peaks and

valleys like you would see on your own.

It's more like a, like a heartbeat.

Kevin Griffin: like to say, just expanding
on a lot of the points you just made.

Um, first big thing is really try to
optimize the first like two or three

videos specifically for the reviews.

Cause Udemy doesn't wait until you get to
the end of a course, ask you to review it.

They're going to ask you after
the second or third video.

So if you're.

Optimizing your, your curriculum, um,
make your like first, second, third

video really good, maybe fourth or fifth,
because what's going to happen is after

that second video is going to pop up
and it'll say, Hey, how are you enjoying

this course, even though they know.

Like there's no way there's a good answer
to that because they've only done 2

percent of your entire course, but they're
going to ask you for a star rating.

And you really want those five stars.

And even better if someone puts in a
written review of what they think of it.

But that's a great way to get some of
those initial reviews that come in because

you don't he's going to ask for it now.

They can always go back and
change the review later.

So don't make the rest
of your course crap,

Brian Gorman: Right.

Kevin Griffin: really aim to optimize
those first couple of videos.

Cause that's when the initial
reviews are going to come in.

Uh, I would also say, I
definitely agree with buying

into Udemy's marketing program.

I was getting messages from friends
of mine that were seeing my, my

course in their Facebook ads,
which was mind blowing to me.

Because I had gotten bestseller,
I gotten hot, whatever the things

were, but it was enough for you and
me to put me into their ad program,

which just helped me along the way.

Um, so I highly recommend doing that.

I don't, you know, like you said, if
you're going the route where you want

the full 50 to a hundred dollars of
your course, you just might as well

self publish, hopefully you have
the audience to come by your course.

Like, we're not all West boss, right?

We can't just put something out
there and make a million dollars.

Um, I wish I could.

That'd be great.

But.

Yeah, it'd be amazing.

Yeah, I think that's great.

I actually didn't mean for us to go
on a diatribe of Udemy, but I really

suggest the people getting started.

If you don't have the audience, like
Udemy is a great place to go to just

put some content out there and there's
a lot of really good ways to just

differentiate yourself across all the
other authors on Udemy, uh, specifically

if you are a native English speaker and
you're putting yourself out there like

the talking heads, I I feel like that
makes a huge difference just across

the board, um, because you're a, you're
trusted and it's easy to understand you.

There's a lot of material on Udemy
that are voice behind slides or voice

behind code and heavily accented
and very difficult to understand.

Which I think is fine if you're doing a
course in another language, but if you're

trying to do it in English, which for
us is primarily what developers speak

or need to speak, it's not going to be
as well received as someone say, like

you or me, native English speakers, not.

Terribly accented, which I guess
I've been told by folks in the UK,

you really have a Southern accent.

I'm like, I don't have an accent.

What are you talking about?

Uh,

Brian Gorman: I live in Iowa
where we write the phonics rules.

So, so I know that I'm
right the way I talk, right?

Kevin Griffin: yes, you are.

Moving on.

Um, so I think one thing if you
don't take anything from this

conversation with Brian is that
Brian does a lot has a lot of accent.

I'm going to say irons in the fire,
but it really has a lot of threads

going on to keep it on topic.

Brian, was there a, uh, just a
point in your life where you said,

I really need to have all these
different threads of income coming in?

Um, some sort of epiphany
that you might've had.

Brian Gorman: Sure.

So, I, um, I, you know, the first
time it actually kind of hit

me was I was commuting back and
forth between Ames and Des Moines.

I was working at Wells Fargo,
which was a fantastic job, probably

one of the best jobs I had.

Um, we had a really good team
and everything was awesome.

It was when NET was just
brand new, kind of baby steps.

We were on NET 2 at the point, some 1.

1, 2, somewhere in there.

Um, and I, I got the chance to kind of
mentor a couple other people, even though

they were better developers than me.

Um, just because I was, I
was sticking up with it.

I was going to conferences
or, you know, talks.

And so I was able to kind of
share what I was learning.

On dot net, and I really just enjoyed
the training part of the teaching

part much more than the pulling the
story down and solving the problem.

And then going again next story and just
kind of that doing that over and over

again and just like helping other people.

So I was like, really kind
of want to do something extra

and I got a master's degree.

Um, and so then the university
of Phoenix was, there was a

office across the interstate from
where I worked in Des Moines.

There was a university
of Phoenix satellite.

And so I interviewed there.

To be a, uh, a college instructor and
for reasons unbeknownst to me, I don't

know what happened in that process, but
somehow either I got hired and didn't

take the job or I never got hired or I'm
not really sure where that all landed.

I never actually taught a course there,
but then I was teaching for the University

of Phoenix online and a couple other, like
a DeVry thing and these other little ones.

Um, and I actually had 2
really good college jobs.

One of them was, uh, Colorado Tech.

And then the other one
was Franklin University.

And at the end of the
day, I love the teaching.

I didn't necessarily
dig the grading so much.

And I was, I had quit my developer
job, and I was now teaching for

five different universities.

And I was moving and getting
married all the same.

This is a crazy time of life.

Um, and I had all this going on.

And I was like, I just really want to just
make videos and have that on the side.

And then also like have.

The ability to like provide for my
family, so I'm taking a developer job

and making videos and then I honed in,
honed in, I don't know what the word is.

I always mix those up.

I took the, I narrowed it down to just
Franklin University, which was the

best job out of all of them in my mind.

Um, I love the people and I was
teaching actual computer science.

Foundational computer science, programming
and data structures, which I really love.

Um, and so then I made videos because
my students needed access to me.

And that was where it was just
like, okay, this started to roll.

So I had this like epiphany
of now I, I need to make more

videos because like you said.

Once you see like a little bit of money
come in, you're like, wait a minute.

This actually works.

But until you get to that point
where it's like enough to leave your

developer job, it's not quite enough.

So then you're like, okay,
well I'll just be a developer

and I'll do this on the side.

Um, but yeah, it was like, it was
more just a fulfillment thing,

a thing to help people grow.

But then also like the back of
my mind, always like this, like.

There's got to be more to life than
this type of feeling, like more to

life than doing user stories every day.

Um, and, and having a little more control
over my own destiny and just being in the

manager of where I want to go in my life
and who, who I want to be as a person.

Um, and ultimately then just like this,
I just, I call it an unquenchable thirst

for, to like leave a legacy for my family.

So that has been the number
one driver for me to be like.

Unstopping like unceasing, like, um,
I didn't mention this to you ahead

of time, but like I, I was in a
program, uh, almost eight years ago.

Now I bought a program that, uh,
was about building a SAS product

and making a business out of it.

This was, I'm still just trying to
like find where am I going to go?

You know, like got all
these irons in the fire.

Um, but they told a story that was
actually from a Jim Collins book.

And it was about the 20 mile march.

The 20 mile march is a just really
quick over, overhead of the story is

two teams going to the South Pole.

Uh, one team says, every day, regardless
of the weather, we're going 20 miles.

The other team says, if the weather's
good, we'll go as far as we can.

If the weather's bad, we'll
hunker down and wait it out.

So at the end of the day, the team,
of course, going 20 miles a day

and makes it to the South Pole.

The real kicker is the team that
didn't do that, now they all died.

They're dead.

Like, they didn't even, they
didn't even survive the journey.

So, the idea is, the 20 mile march.

And I tell people when I'm training
them, and they're going to take a

certification course, or whatever it
might be, have an unbreakable commitment

to yourself, that every night, you
know, three nights, five nights a week,

I'm going to do one hour of something.

Whether it's build a video, write,
write for a book, write a blog, record

a podcast, whatever it might be.

And you do that 20 mile march every week
and that momentum will be unstoppable.

So um, that's kind of been how
I've been ever since I heard about

that story, it's kind of been
like, Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Um, so yeah, so I've written a couple
of books, I've made more videos, I've

been training, I've been, I had to
get a whole bunch of certifications

to train, so I had to do that.

So like.

There had been a lot of irons in
the fire for some time, but it

just keeps building on itself.

So it's cool.

Kevin Griffin: Do you have any tips
for staying accountable to yourself?

Like it's nice to say, all right,
I'm going to spend an hour every

other day working on something.

Um, I've even heard people say,
all right, spend half an hour.

Every day, every morning, you know, just
work on something that's for yourself.

Uh, but it's easier is one of those
things that I feel like it's easier

said than done, where I might be good,
any habit I'm good for three days and

then something happens and I fall off
the horse and it's hard to get back on.

How do you keep yourself
accountable to make sure that

you're following that process?

Brian Gorman: So, so, so two things,
and it's really interesting cause I just

was listening to a podcast from a guy.

Um, his name is David Bayer and I'm
going to his event in Texas at, uh, you

were just there at the Kalahari for,
you were there for that conference.

Um, I'm going down to his event, the
powerful living experience at the end of

February at that same Kalahari, I think.

And, um, anyway, I digress a little
bit, but his, his whole thing was,

you know, talking about the 12 step
recovery program and being an alcoholic,

a drug addict, and ultimately then,
um, failing, like, um, starting over.

And, and he talked about like the, the
fact that people who have been, you know,

drug free for longer, like 20, 20, 20
years, they have one, one slip and then

they go on these long vendors because
once they slip, they're done, right?

And the reason that that happens to
you is because you're unable to forgive

yourself for the thing that you did.

So then you've just given up.

So how do you keep yourself accountable?

This is going to sound really weird,
but you have to forgive yourself.

So like, it makes total sense
when you're listening to it.

You're going to go and you're going to
say, Okay, I'm committing 5 hours a week

that I'm going to study for the AZ 204.

Or 5 hours a week that I'm
going to build a video course.

Your accountability is,
number one, did you do it?

But number two, like, what's the deadline?

Like, you can't just have an open
ended thing, because it, you're,

if you say I'm going to get the AZ
204, but you don't say I'm going to

schedule the exam for March 31st,

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Brian Gorman: do you think
you're going to study tonight?

Well, you have the intention to,
but you're, you know, it's Groundhog

Day, you know, I've seen the
Bill Murray Groundhog Day movie.

30 times, but it's Groundhog Day.

So I better watch that again tonight,
you know, because, and I earned it.

I had a really hard day at work
and it's Friday, it's Friday.

So I really don't want to actually
have to, uh, work tonight, you know, so

there's a, the universe is going to like
provide all these excuses for you to quit.

So you have to be able to like,
you make a commitment to yourself.

And when you screw up, which you
will, you have to forgive yourself,

and you have to have a deadline
for when it has to be done.

So like when you write a book,
you have to do a chapter a week.

If you don't do a chapter a
week, it's going to be horrible.

If you are going to study for an exam,
put, go buy the exam, like for 165,

schedule it for March 31st, and guess
what's going to happen by March 31st?

Two things.

Either you're going to be ready.

Or you'll at least have studied and you
won't be ready and you can move it, but

you will not just sit around every night
going, well, I'll do that next week when

you know that you only have five weeks
to learn, you know, 60 hours of material.

It's just not gonna happen.

So, so that's, and then the biggest
part of that, which I'm just

learning to do better myself is
to be okay when you do screw up.

But what he said was really interesting
to me because it really clicked with me.

It's like, you have to be 100
percent okay that you screwed

up, which means that like.

Before you even screw up, you have
to be 100 percent okay with yourself

that you're going to screw up.

So, I'm trying to lose weight, I'm trying
to run a marathon, whatever it might be.

I don't feel like running today.

Okay, the 20 mile march
says I should run today.

So, if I'm going to stick to
that principle, I better do it,

even though I don't feel like it.

And I get on the treadmill, all
of a sudden, I'm 10 minutes in,

I'm like, you know, this isn't
so bad and I'll be done soon.

Okay, great.

But that doesn't work every time.

So, next time is like, well,
the kids have a basketball game.

I better go to the basketball game.

Okay, I'm 100 percent okay missing my
run to go to my kids basketball game.

Because that's important too.

So then it's a priority thing, right?

But I'm never gonna just not do it because
I don't have a reason to not do it.

If that makes sense?

Kevin Griffin: yeah, absolutely.

I see a lot of folks on mostly it's
Facebook and Instagram doing this thing.

It's what like 75 hard or yeah.

Where it's a very structured list
of things you have to do every day.

And like one thing it might be.

You have to do two workouts.

At least one workout has to be outside.

Uh, you have to read so
many minutes of a book.

Um, you have to drink so much water.

You have to stick to a diet.

It's not telling you
which diet, just any diet.

And I, I do see a lot of success from
the people who set those Guidelines

and deadlines for themselves.

Um, I'm the same way with with my courses.

Um, now it's been a while since I've
done a course, but I said, all right, I'm

launching this course on this day and.

I think one of the other things I
did was I have a I have a small group

of very trusted friends who I said,
I'm launching a course this day and

every week I would have a check in
with them and say, All right, here's

the progress I've made in some weeks.

I didn't make progress
and they would come back.

Okay, well, what's your plan for
this week to get back on track?

And yeah, The deadline can't change.

So what do you do to
make up the difference?

Brian Gorman: Oh, man, you just made
me feel really guilty because I'm

actually, I didn't even mention it, but
I am in a business mentorship group and

I have been for three years or four.

It's actually maybe even longer
than that, like eight years.

I don't know, but my business
coach is exactly that.

We have a group of about eight or nine of
us now, and we have a Facebook thread that

never stops and we share our wins there.

But we also have the ability
to say, Hey, I haven't seen

anything from you this month.

What's going on?

So that actually made me record
a video on, I actually got

a secret project going on.

Um, and I, they know that I'm trying
to build this thing and it's not,

it's not a trivial undertaking.

And so they're like, well,
how's that going for you?

So, so yes, what you said, absolutely.

You've got to have somebody else.

External, who cares enough about
you to at least challenge you on it.

They don't have to be like your
spouse or something, but somebody

who, like, you share that stuff with.

So, great

Kevin Griffin: We just started a
thing in the multi threaded income

discord, uh, called just weekly wins
and anyone who's in the discords

invited to come hang out with us for.

It's 15 20 minutes and just celebrate.

Hey, the thing you got done this week,
and I really would love to see that

evolve into more accountability and say,
All right, well, I was good this week.

Next week, I'm going to do X, Y and Z
and then be able to circle back the next

week and say, All right, did you do it?

And, um, they're never the accountability
is not designed to make you feel bad.

The accountability is designed
to Keep you accountable.

Um, so because I feel like if, if
you don't have that accountability to

someone, anyone, and it's just going
to be very easy to, to give up or

have squirrel moments to other things.

Um, I think it also requires you to focus.

Uh, I, Brian, I'm guessing
you're probably like me.

You have a thousand dumb ideas
in your head and you, you.

You might be working on one and then have
a squirrel moment where you go off to try

to work on something else and you never
quite complete any of them because they're

all in multiple stages of started and
when you have that accountability, you

can't do that because no friend of yours.

Or accountability partner of yours is
going to say, Brian, you're capable

of getting a thousand things done.

No, they're going to say you're
capable of getting one thing done.

What's that one thing you're going to

Brian Gorman: And you committed,
you committed to me that

you wanted to do this thing.

So you can't say, well, I'm working
on this other thing now, but to add

to that, what's really interesting,
and I'm sure you've seen this as an

MVP and as someone who has courses out
there, it's not just squirrel moments.

It's other people who want your time.

So now you've got this new
learning platform that really

wants you to build a course for
them, and it's a lucrative thing.

And it's like, oh, should
I change direction?

Or do I actually say no to real money?

That's even harder than saying no
to my dumb idea in my head, because

this is real money and they're going
to pay me to build them a course.

But like you said, uh, they may
shut that course down next week.

And then what did I really gain from it?

Or it's one of those like, well, we'll
give you a revenue share efforts bill.

It's like, well, I'm going
to give you content and wait.

No, no, no.

You know, some of them are
easier to say no to than others,

but yeah, it's a real thing.

Like all these different, you know,
you've got to be true to what you think.

You have to make a
commitment to that thing.

Like you don't say I'm going to lose
weight and go like a week of losing

weight and then say, Oh, I need a pizza.

So I'm not, instead of, instead of
losing weight this week, I'm actually

going to, you know, I'm going to,
um, I'm going to, uh, learn Russian.

So then you switch to learning
Russian and you eat your pizza.

Now you've not learned Russian
and you've also gotten fatter.

So,

Kevin Griffin: Man.

Stop talking about me like that.

Brian.

Uh.

What's next?

Brian Gorman: Um, so, uh, currently
I'm training for the MSSA program, and

that's actually the thing that gives
me the most, like, joy in life, is,

like, helping veterans, like, transition
out of the military into the A job

in cloud application development.

So I hope to continue doing that.

Um, I also have some consulting things
I do on the side, so that'll be there.

Um, I'm reworking the videos like,
like we talked about, I guess I'm

verbally committing to that now.

Um, so there's my accountability.

You guys can all reach out to
me and be like, Hey, what's

going on with those videos?

I thought you were redoing them anyway.

Um, so that, um, I actually have.

Uh, like I said earlier, I have this
unquenchable like feeling that there's

something more to life that I need to
provide better value to the world with.

Um, but I can do it with a product.

So I'm, I'm working on building
a product, a SAS product.

Um, and I have a couple other people
that are helping me with that.

I need to be more, more of what
I just, I need to practice more

of what I just preached to you
guys all about being more diligent

about staying on schedule with it.

Because it's, it is a
daunting undertaking.

It's much more than just a.

three hour course that you
could get done in a month.

It's, it's a, it's a two to
five year journey, right?

Um, to get that thing built.

And it's hard when you're in
the early stages to see the.

When you don't see the light
at the end of the tunnel.

So that's what my, my multi threaded
super secret thing right now is just

to like get that product built and
then figure out how to market it.

Cause I do believe in the idea.

I do believe it's needed.

I do believe it'll provide
value to the world.

And I do believe that maybe
finally that itch that I have of

this, um, being, I don't know.

I've been a developer for
a long time, over 20 years.

I've been a trainer now for
a full time trainer, really,

technically for five years.

I've been training almost as
long as I've been developing.

Um, it's time for me, like I have this,
this like feeling it's time for me to

move into like the ownership role or
like let other people do the work and

just be more of a like provider of the
facilitator for that work to happen.

Kevin Griffin: Mm hmm.

Brian Gorman: I'm hoping with that
product that, and maybe a couple other

Udemy courses or something, um, you
know, that that would be like the,

the catalyst to like, start rounding
the corner towards retirement.

I, for lack of a better way of saying
it, like I am pushing 50 this year.

And so I'm feeling like that has
also lit a fire under me a little bit

because I can't keep going at this
pace, especially we have four young kids

and they're starting to do sports and.

It's just not going to be as feasible
going forward or as desirable to like

spend all night long trying to write code
or, you know, write a book or something.

So, so yeah, so that's,
what's next for me.

Um, hopefully you will see that
journey in, in, you know, posts on

LinkedIn or whatever through the years
and things that keep happening, but

you never know, uh, I might get a
squirrel idea and change direction.

Kevin Griffin: No, don't do that.

No, not allowing you to do that.

I need to.

So you need to tell me when the super
secret thing is getting ready to launch.

Cause I'm, I'm super interested in it.

And, uh, we'll have you back on the
podcast and we'll talk about, you

know, more details of launching a SAS.

I think a lot of people have that goal
as well of building some sort of product.

So I think it's.

Worthwhile to have a conversation of
going through the growing pains of

starting of launching something and

Brian Gorman: I have multiple
accountability to that because

you're now, now you're going to
hold me accountable for it too.

Kevin Griffin: Cause someone's going to
ask me, Hey, what's the update on Brian?

I don't know.

Let's find out.

Brian Gorman: I doubt that'll
happen, but you at least know.

Kevin Griffin: Yeah.

Well, Brian, I appreciate
having you on the podcast.

Uh, you've, so you've given us a
laundry list of things you have.

Is there anything else to
promote that we haven't covered?

Brian Gorman: um, not really.

I mean, honestly, I had at one
point a training program that I

was really heavily invested in
around Microsoft certifications.

So I would say this.

If you.

The only other thing is, is that I
do have the capability and I don't

know what, what journey comes next
for me after May when the MSSA ends.

So the, the door is still
wide open right now.

If you have some, the only other thing
is I do have the capability to help

people get, uh, Microsoft certifications
for specifically around partnerships.

So like if you have an organization and
they need AZ 104, AZ 204, to get like five

people certified, AZ 305, AZ 400, those
four certs are pretty big for a couple

of the different app dev specialties.

So if, if you're looking for that
or, you know, like I would love

to have a conversation and see if
there is a fit for me to help you.

Cause I have a unique program around that.

That's not the, Hey, let's all come to
class for five days and figure this out.

It's, it's a lot more, um, spread out
and, and, and yeah, so that, that's there.

But other than that, uh,
yeah, that's really it for me.

I guess I have, I have music
on Spotify too, if you like

Christian music, I got some

Kevin Griffin: Oh, nice.

Brian Gorman: Yeah.

But

Kevin Griffin: make sure we
drop a link to all that stuff.

Brian Gorman: 0.

009 cents per listen or something.

Kevin Griffin: Hey, every
little bit counts, right?

Brian Gorman: Yeah.

Kevin Griffin: So that's
not car payment money.

That's a, maybe a big Mac.

Brian Gorman: No.

And in fact, it's so far and all,
because I recorded it down in Nashville.

So like, as much as I paid for the
recording and all that stuff, um,

I might never recover that money.

And that's okay because it was experience.

So that's the other thing.

Like.

Just do things for the experience.

Don't worry about the money.

I'll take care of itself.

If you can.

I know I'm very blessed and have lived
a charmed life in some of that, that

other people might have the opportunity.

But if that makes sense, anyway,

Kevin Griffin: Well, I
appreciate it, Brian.

And we'll make sure we put links to
everything in our show notes and we'll

have you back sometime in the future.

Talk about what else is going on.

Um, but with that, Brian, we appreciate
having you and everyone listening.

Thank you for listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

And we'll see you next time.

Brian Gorman: Thanks, Kevin.

Have a great one.

You've been listening to the
multi threaded income podcast.

I really hope that this podcast
has been useful for you.

If it has, please take a moment to leave a
review wherever you get your podcast from.

And don't forget the
conversation doesn't stop here.

Join us on our discord at mti.

to slash discord.

I've been your host Kevin Griffin
and we'll see you next week.

Cha ching!